Game development teams / Profit share / IP / Gameplay issues

[Zealot]

Hi Spring Community.

My Name is Pete Phillips, I'm 28 and from Australia.

I have been playing spring for several months now and reading lots on these forums.

I am planning on making an indi rts game over the next several years. I Don't have any content yet. I don't have any experience in the game design industry. I have a lot of ideas that i have been developing over the last several years through research, or real world dynamics of warfare and rts gamely. I have a sci fi IP game universe and mythology that I have been developing over the last 10 years with a deep history and strong narrative arcs.

I understand that as a complete noob to game design many people will not take me seriously or will wait until I can prove that I have any skill and am able to produce and finish anything before they take me seriously.

I have just spent the last 3 and a half years producing an independent feature film. This was done with a small team of volunteers working on a profit share basis with no funding other than what we could save ourselves working while we made the film. It has taken us 3 and a half years to finish the whole project. This I believe at least gives me an understanding of the huge amount of work required at every stage of a creative endeavour such as this. I also had to learn a huge number of new skill while working on the project because if i did not complete certain tasks no one would.

I am starting a Bachelor of game design next year at a specialist training facility here in Australia, where I hope to pick up a lot of the skills that I will need on this project.

I expect this project to take 3 to 5 years of my life.



Ok so I have some questions for people in the spring community that I would love some help with. If you don't want to waste your time answering noob questions I understand. I have spent several months reading the forums trying to get answers before I asked anyone.


Ok

Question on game development, development teams, open source and IP.

I want to make a game that when it is finished can be sold through indi channels. I also have my own extensive Game world IP that I intend to explore through a series of games and movies in the future.

In the indi film industry and theatre industry here it is quite common to work on indi projects on a profit share basis. Where if the project makes money, people split the money based on the amount of work they each put in. (There are various methods of working out who gets how much.)

Is this profit share method common in the indi games industry? What is your opinion on if it would work?


I believe that areas like gameplay dynamic and combat dynamics are areas that I have a pretty good understanding of. I am planning to do a lot of study in 3d design, Texturing, and animation. I do know that I will need some kind of team. As I can only scratch the surface of any kind of programming. I will continue to learn what I can but I know that I will need to Team to make things as I envision. In saying that I am excited about the spring engine in that there is a lot that can be done without programming skills.

Before I start asking for people to help with anything I want to try get a lot of work done on making good gameplay while using place holder graphics.

I do know however that I have a few questions regarding LUA that I need help with to create some of the dynamics I want.

I don't know what the best way to do this is regarding IP and open source and payment / profit share.


I think that the best structure I can think of is to keep my gameworld, unit and art design, and gameplay copywriter but make all / most code open source or some thing like that.

I don't understand how all the different licences work like GNU or etc. I read a few forum topics about it and there seems to be some heated discussion about how each of them work.

If any one can help clarify this for me that would be great.

And I would love any ideas on how to structure this game development in terms of finances and credit for work done by different parties.


Ok some of my specific gameplay design issues so far.

1 How is it possible to create a unit that can move fast when uncloacked and slow when cloaked?

2 Is it possible to change the decloack radius so that a unit can be seen from a longer distance when it is moving, but only can be seen from up close when it is stationary?

I really want to have infinity units that are decloaked when running. Clocked when walking (but can be seen from a medium distance, and clock and only seen from real close when stationary.)

I want to try and develop a gameplay that has similarity to submarine warfare where there is a lot of waiting and hiding. And where intelligence and scouting is a victory decider.


I also really like to Spring Tanks "cloaking under trees dynamic"


My dilemma is that people have obviously spent large amounts of time developing pieces of code like this and I want to be able to give them credit for this and potentially payment down the track, but I want to be able to control my own IP and my own work that is put into the project.


Does any one have any ideas or thoughts or feedback on these issues.


I think that making a game sellable once it is finished will make indi development grow, and it will make the spring community grow.

I was concerned when I was reading that (I think it was) Forboding Angel and EVO RTS said that he cannot really sell his game now after years of work because so many people contributed and he has no way of sharing any money he made / would feel selfish / get sued if he did not share it.

(or some thing along those lines)

I want to try to make a plan before hand where I don't get stuck in this situation. In 3 or 5 years time

I want to make games. And I hope to eventually make some money back on the thousands of hours I am going to put in. But I also want to recognise every one who contributes over the years.

Any thoughts please?

Kind regards

Pete

aka Zealot.

zealoty1



ps my avatar name is not necessarily from star craft.

[smoth]

1 How is it possible to create a unit that can move fast when uncloacked and slow when cloaked?

yes

2 Is it possible to change the decloack radius so that a unit can be seen from a longer distance when it is moving, but only can be seen from up close when it is stationary?

yes

I really want to have infinity units that are decloaked when running. Clocked when walking (but can be seen from a medium distance, and clock and only seen from real close when stationary.)

yes but may cost on performance a bit

I want to try and develop a gameplay that has similarity to submarine warfare where there is a lot of waiting and hiding. And where intelligence and scouting is a victory decider.

doable

My dilemma is that people have obviously spent large amounts of time developing pieces of code like this and I want to be able to give them credit for this and potentially payment down the track, but I want to be able to control my own IP and my own work that is put into the project.

I don't mind as long as you give credit to me, I like my name in bright shining lights. Seriously though, the only commercial project in spring that I had an issue with was because it decided AFTER people had given to it that it was going commercial. You are being up front and I can respect that. If you use anything of mine, please donate to the server and give me a shout out, you don't have to but I would appreciate it.


IP and GPL:
The gpl states that art should not be covered by it. Your game can use the art as an asset in a separate file.

so like:

gamefile - depends on -> art file

so [gamefile](gpl compatible)(artfile)closed source.

since the game file would link to the art file and no the other way around, you are good to go.

You seem to have your stuff together but I will still give you my customary, this is a lot more time than you think warning.

Best of luck. if you have any further questions I am around sometimes.

[gajop]

Big messy post, try to organize it better next time and remove the unnecessary stuff.
Ok, here we go:

I am starting a Bachelor of game design next year at a specialist training facility here in Australia, where I hope to pick up a lot of the skills that I will need on this project.

I know people that did that in Britain, they mentioned a couple of times they didn't do any programming. No programming => no game.

Is this profit share method common in the indi games industry? What is your opinion on if it would work?

If you ever make a game it's up to you how you want to share profits. No Spring licence enforces non-profit or specifies a way of profit sharing.

If any one can help clarify this for me that would be great.

Game code must be open source under GPL2/3. Art may be closed source (verify that with someone though).

And I would love any ideas on how to structure this game development in terms of finances and credit for work done by different parties.

Donate it to me!

1 How is it possible to create a unit that can move fast when uncloacked and slow when cloaked?

Yes, probably.

2 Is it possible to change the decloack radius so that a unit can be seen from a longer distance when it is moving, but only can be seen from up close when it is stationary?

Likely so. I know how I would do it in Lua unless there's an obstacle.

My dilemma is that people have obviously spent large amounts of time developing pieces of code like this and I want to be able to give them credit for this and potentially payment down the track, but I want to be able to control my own IP and my own work that is put into the project.
Does any one have any ideas or thoughts or feedback on these issues.

Open source code already developed is free for you to use however you like (as long as you maintain the licence). If you want to contribute back do it in engine patches or donate to server maintenance. Producing tools everyone can use is a nice way of saying thanks.

I was concerned when I was reading that (I think it was) Forboding Angel and EVO RTS said that he cannot really sell his game now after years of work because so many people contributed and he has no way of sharing any money he made / would feel selfish / get sued if he did not share it.

Ignore evorts for now, afaik it was never intended to be for profit. There were attempts at selling spring games (P.U.R.E), you should look at that for specific examples.

I want to try to make a plan before hand where I don't get stuck in this situation. In 3 or 5 years time

Ugh, you don't need a 3-5 year time plan, at least don't expect anyone to formulate one until you've shown results.

inb4 smoth
EDIT:

[PicassoCT]

Too late with the inb4.


Im all in for a captcha that asks for a EngineCall- and that doesent allow you too post Game Dev Team as words in the title if you cant name one. Not even pictures. I admit i didnt read. I guess my old self, before i started modelling, texturing, coding would consider such a reply offensive. And god, it would deserve beeing offended.

Here is to anyone travelling to 1993, get this message on your knee "Learn to code and ll be free", and ram it in my balls.


If you have questions about lua, setting up a mod, making your first tank and such- there is the moddev chanell in irc.

For everything else, i guess we find you in your office, mr.CEO.

PS: Searched the offtopics history a little bit. And lucky you. There are half a dozen other guys, who have great ideas and want to be the CEO of a gamedev team. So maybee you can team up, and everyone can be CEO in turns?
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3732
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7756
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... ea#p529145 (Sorry that one said he want to do it all by himself... )
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... +game+idea

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... ea#p481778 too real too soon

[zwzsg]

There is a precedent of indie game powered by Spring going commercial:

P.U.R.E. (by xenoargh)

Still sold on impulse : http://www.impulsedriven.com/products/ESD-IMP-W219

[FLOZi]

Still selling broken goods to poor saps

@OP: I'm probably one of the better known content devs who is particularly ideologically opposed to commercial releases and even I won't really care if you use any of my GPL code in your product - And even if I did; it's GPL I can't stop you.

Heck I'll probably even actively help you from time to time (Though sadly my Spring-time is essentially a few hours every other Friday these days )

[Forboding Angel]

I was concerned when I was reading that (I think it was) Forboding Angel and EVO RTS said that he cannot really sell his game now after years of work because so many people contributed and he has no way of sharing any money he made / would feel selfish / get sued if he did not share it.

Ignore evorts for now, afaik it was never intended to be for profit. There were attempts at selling spring games (P.U.R.E), you should look at that for specific examples.

I blanched when I read that, envisioning the wave of hatred incoming... You are correct, evo was never intended to be for-profit.

[Zealot]

Hi All.

Thanks for your generous replies.

Thanks for clarifying these things for me.


If this forum is the wrong place to write these kind of questions please point me in the right direction and feel free to delete this topic.


Is there a better place than here to post or to ask specific questions such as how to write code for decloak radius changes. and how to get scripts to make units deployable into structures.

Piccaso mentioned a mod dev irc channel.

Sorry I havnt used Irc before. where do I find this channel.

or is here
(http://answers.springlobby.info/questions/ )
a good place too?

Sorry if I made this Original post in the wrong place.

I have already modelled a few original units but they are really basic. I am going to be training in that next year so I thought that I would wait until then before I get more serious on that front.

I am currently trying to create gameplay dynamics and balance, and I got stuck because I didn't know how to script the different cloak states that I want. And the game play doesn't work as I want it without this.


So I will be upfront that I hope for this project to be a commercial release eventually. I will credit all people who contribute.

At the moment I am only asking for help in pointing me in the right direction to learn how to code the different cloak states that I mentioned above.


I realise that at this point it seems incredibly unlikely that anything will ever come of this.

I just wanted to get these points across and find out where I can ask questions about obstacles when I get stuck.

Then in 6 months or a year when I have some thing to show which people will respect I may come asking for more help.




@smoth.

I really want to have infinity units that are decloaked when running. Clocked when walking (but can be seen from a medium distance, and cloack and only seen from real close when stationary.)

yes but may cost on performance a bit

Sorry I meant to write infantry units not infinity.


@gajop

I want to try to make a plan before hand where I don't get stuck in this situation. In 3 or 5 years time

Ugh, you don't need a 3-5 year time plan, at least don't expect anyone to formulate one until you've shown results.

Just to clarify I was not asking for help to make a plan. I was trying to explain my reason for the post. That I wanted to clarify these things so I could make a plan my self.

Thanks for your generous response. I value the time every one put in to replying to me.


@Forboding Angel.

Sorry if I misquoted you.

I was reading old posts and mod db last week and I read somewhere some one saying evo was great and they couldn't believe it was free, and you explaining that many people had contributed.

Sorry if cause you any trouble.

As I am intending this to be commercial (on an indi level) I just wanted that to be upfront.

I just didn't want people to have contributed to this game, and then later feel exploited because it is being sold.

As Evo was not intending to be commercial I understand that this is a different circumstance.

[knorke]

on decloak radius, see http://springrts.com/wiki/Lua_SyncedCtrl#Unit_LOS
Spring.SetUnitCloak has decloakDistance parameter.

I also really like to Spring Tanks "cloaking under trees dynamic"

hooray!
you may use it and when you become a millionaire I want one of these funny RC helicopters.

Is there a better place than here to post or to ask specific questions such as how to write code for decloak radius changes. and how to get scripts to make units deployable into structures.

Just ask the questions in this forum or type /join moddev in lobby.
More details in question=more details in answer

[gajop]

I have already modelled a few original units but they are really basic. I am going to be training in that next year so I thought that I would wait until then before I get more serious on that front.

I don't think you need to wait a year before you start working on your game. Sure, don't neglect your studies but pursuing what you like to do helps you stay interested.
I started programming some 9 years ago (wow it has been that long) in my first year of high school. Back then, I was coding 2D games in DJGPP (CLI editor + compiler) and Allegro (2D library). Compared to the free tools, internet speed and powerful computers today, I doubt there's anything that can't be done.
9 years later, with my masters degree in CS I would still use most of the experiences remembered there (plus general SE/OOP/coding stuff one learns at a uni) when creating a 2D game.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe there's anything formal education can't teach you about modeling/texturing/animating that you can't teach yourself at 10x the speed.

[Google_Frog]

My internet stalking tells me that by "playing Spring" you probably meant playing BA. At a minimum you probably haven't played Zero-K multiplayer.

As someone looking to develop a game with Spring you should give Zero-K a look. Many feasibility questions can be answered if you are familiar with ZK because there will often be a unit which uses a mechanic equivalent to the one you are after. By the same reasoning try all non-TA games but it is difficult to find people to play those in multiplayer.

1 How is it possible to create a unit that can move fast when uncloacked and slow when cloaked?

2 Is it possible to change the decloack radius so that a unit can be seen from a longer distance when it is moving, but only can be seen from up close when it is stationary?

I really want to have infinity units that are decloaked when running. Clocked when walking (but can be seen from a medium distance, and clock and only seen from real close when stationary.)

I want to try and develop a gameplay that has similarity to submarine warfare where there is a lot of waiting and hiding. And where intelligence and scouting is a victory decider.


I also really like to Spring Tanks "cloaking under trees dynamic"

These mechanics are all fairly easy to implement. As in 1 and 2 would take me a few hours at most.

Lua documentation: http://springrts.com/wiki/Lua_Scripting

Important Advice:

• Do not use cob to write unit scripts. All scripts should be written in lua.
• For any kind of lua programming you need to have a general idea of how the engine works. What synced and unsynced means, concepts such as 'sim' and 'local'.
• Treat the lua content of other games as example code.
• If you don't know what a function or callin does experiment with it.

[smoth]

at the very least, start with a unit in the game. Then start looking at gadgets and scripts and possibilities.

"a unit in game" is an important step and you will learn a lot getting to that step.

[Forboding Angel]

@Forboding Angel.

Sorry if I misquoted you.

I was reading old posts and mod db last week and I read somewhere some one saying evo was great and they couldn't believe it was free, and you explaining that many people had contributed.

Sorry if cause you any trouble.

As I am intending this to be commercial (on an indi level) I just wanted that to be upfront.

I just didn't want people to have contributed to this game, and then later feel exploited because it is being sold.

As Evo was not intending to be commercial I understand that this is a different circumstance.

No worries

Allow me to do you a huge solid: http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=22283

Approximately half of Evo was made using these (though the texture used was different). Using these you can crank out models like crazy.

Important Advice:

• Do not use cob to write unit scripts. All scripts should be written in lua.
• For any kind of lua programming you need to have a general idea of how the engine works. What synced and unsynced means, concepts such as 'sim' and 'local'.
• Treat the lua content of other games as example code.
• If you don't know what a function or callin does experiment with it.

^^ This.

Also, check out both Evo and ZK. That should answer a lot of questions I would think. And on the *yay* side, all that code is gpl'd and free for use in your own game *squeeeee!*

[Zealot]

Thanks again every one.

Very informative and helpful.


@Knorke

Thanks.

yes definitely a rc helicopter.

Though I don't know if ill ever be a millionaire.




@googlefrog

Yes I have been playing BA.

As I am a mac user I have found it very hard to get most other games and mods to run, and then have found it hard to find hosted games for the ones that do run.

I started looking into spring several years ago but i could not work out how to get any thing at all to run then on my mac.

I can now get zero k to run offline but it crashes for online play.

It was reading about zero k that actually got me to try and play spring again. I am really excited about it. But unfortunately it is not working for me. I will try and spend some more time playing it offline to get familiar with what it can do.


Thanks for the tips.



@gajop

Thanks

I agree about the training.

Over the last 4 years I taught myself cinematography, sound recording for film, film editing, basic post production sfx, and shot, edited and completed a 2 hour indi feature film with my wife, with no formal training.

At 28 I have decided that I want to have a uni degree, mostly for the recognition that people in certain circles of society give you. (particularly funding bodies)

Since I found this specialist school that focuses only on digital media animation and gaming and I can get a bachelors degree in 2 years because it is intensive study I thought I would give it a go. The course is taught by people who are actively working in the industry, and it will also be a good opportunity to meet people and build a team. There is also a game programming course and we have to do collaborative projects together.

Also uni courses are funded by the government here and I only have to pay it back once I start earning large amounts of money so cost is no stress.

Thanks for the advice though. I will get started on all aspects of the game in the near future.

@smoth

Thanks

will do


@Forboding Angel.

Thanks again

I had read about these but had forgotten.

Super useful

Thanks

[Zealot]

Ok

So I have just gone back to trying to get my 2 test models in game.

I have gone back an looked at PTSnoops complete guide to making a game (which is great) http://springrts.com/wiki/The_Complete_ ... pring_Game

Then I remembered why I got stuck before.

I have modelled and textured the unit (very basically) but the next step in the tutorial is upsring. And this does not run on mac (or I will need to compile it from source code (which I have no idea how to do.)

* Is there a way of not using upsring. Or do I need to buy windows and run it on a pc emulator to get a unit ingame?

* Also is there a tutorial anywhere for animating bots walking.

I could just try copy a bot's lua animation from zero k or something and just name all the pieces in my model the same as the model I am copying from. But I would like to learn how it actually works.

[Beherith]

As far as I know there is no real GUI way around upspring. You might find a blender s3o export script somewhere. Bite the bullet and WINE upspring.

Bot animation is not easy, the best bet is to use an existing one, and learn how it works from that. The animation syntax is just timed rotations/translations with speed.

[smoth]

everybody gets one...

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=20

[FLOZi]

As far as I know there is no real GUI way around upspring. You might find a blender s3o export script somewhere. Bite the bullet and WINE upspring.

Better to just use blender and export to obj or dae, surely?

[Anarchid]

Better to just use blender and export to obj or dae, surely?

FTFY.

(prooflink, downloadable example in last post)

Also, Blender s3o exporter plugin is for 2.4, which is obsolete by a couple of years now, and had bugs like broken normals even when it worked.

Also2, "upspring in wine" is not a solution because it gets geborkt to a sad extent. If one really wants to run that legacy tool coded for an unreleased cul-de-sack beta version of a forgotten windowing toolkit, it's either virtualization or doubleboot.

[PicassoCT]

post the model file and the textures..


Sorry Zealot, thought you were one of too many. But you mean buisness