Thought: make Mohos overwrite mexxies?

[Rafal99]

I am a coder and am looking at Spring code from some time, so i think i can try to make a patch for this thing when i will found some free time.

But firstly i need to know what solution you want for this:
1. What do think about ability to queue orders so you can reclaim current building and then build new building at the same place?
I think i can implement this but will need take a look at ILMTitan's patch (the one which gives ability to surround planned buildings with onther buildings) first so i will tell then if can really do this.
2. For mexes I think it won't hurt if you can automatically replace mex to build better mex on its place. For example you can overbuild a mex if you want to build mex which is 30% better. I can also make a tag for modders, so for example in AA it would be something like 1.3 to prevent reclaiming armed/cloaked mexes then building normal ones. For example 0 value will disable this feature for the mod.

So what do think about it?
And btw sorry for my bad english.

[AF]

but there're so many things already and so many key combos, it isnt helpful to new users.

New users will ask for this feature then get told it already exists in the form alt+click.

Whereas alt+click may even be doen by accident, maybe not but it's possible nontheless.

My suggestion is straight to the point providing instant results without prior knowledge, which is good user design. I provides a logical mapping fo function to interface, it's obvious, it requires no reading of any documents or asking any questions, as it's totally self explanatory, it doesnt add a buttont o the already bloated side menu, it isnt another key combo to remember, and ti doesnt use up the alt key for other features.

Whatsmore it can be assigned to the alt key too should the user wish using key bindings.

[Caydr]

ALT key is the best solution, shh

[Pxtl]

but there're so many things already and so many key combos, it isnt helpful to new users.

New users will ask for this feature then get told it already exists in the form alt+click.

Whereas alt+click may even be doen by accident, maybe not but it's possible nontheless.

My suggestion is straight to the point providing instant results without prior knowledge, which is good user design. I provides a logical mapping fo function to interface, it's obvious, it requires no reading of any documents or asking any questions, as it's totally self explanatory, it doesnt add a buttont o the already bloated side menu, it isnt another key combo to remember, and ti doesnt use up the alt key for other features.

Whatsmore it can be assigned to the alt key too should the user wish using key bindings.

That's a good point. CanBuildOver does seem like best option, when you looke at it that way. However, alt+click is still needed for some cases, as you often do want to upgrade or change a unit.. and that's not alway appropriate. For example, BuildOver behaviour would also be handy in dense defenses, but that's also the exact environment you _wouldn't_ want something to happen accidentally.

Imho, a joint approach is best - a "BuildOver" tag for auto-reclamation, and a "forcebuild" command for other cases. I still think that a "forcebuild" should not actually auto-reclaim, just allow the player to say "it won't be there by the time you arrive" so you can do manual reclamation beforehand.

Hell, you could even expand this out to having multiple BuildOver types - like a BuildOverType.

=1 means relcaim the old one,
=2 means build the new unit coincident to the old one, and the old one is auto-reclaimed once construction of the new one is complete (for mods where you want the old mexx to keep running until the new moho is online).
=3 means you _must_ build it over the old unit. For Starcraft-style "upgrading" units.

It would be particularly fun if you could have the commandership transferred to a new unit using =2 or =3 where BuildOver includes the comm.

But this is all pie-in-the-sky daydreaming. The basic feature would still be nice.

[Lindir The Green]

pointless micro.

Yeah, last time I checked, wikis aren't for personal opinion articles...

So am I supposed to write an article using somebody elses opinion?

You can call the types of micro whatever you want, but there still are two distinct types: the type that adds strategic depth and the type that doesn't. In my opinion a good game should try to minimise the former.

I clearly stated in the article which small sections were opinion, and which were fact.

You might think the names are misleading, but you can't argue with the fact that some micro adds strategic depth and some micro does not. If you think that some of the activities are in the wrong category, then by all means change them. And if you can convince people that the way you sorted them was more accurate than the way I did, then the wiki article will continue to reflect your way.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to hijack the thread any more than it has already been hijacked.

* * *

I really like the doubleclick to try to build an item, even if currently it wouldn't be successfully built.

[Rafal99]

Noone reads what i wrote again.
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewt ... 4411#94411

And it isn't daydreaming, i said i would like to implement it, but we need to find a good solution for it first.
I don't agree about Alt key, it is already assigned to "build block of buildings" so it can cause problems to newbies. Idea with doubleclick seems to be much better. But why not just make mexes replaceable with a single click?

[AF]

The idea was simple

click on where you want. If it can be built there but there's an existing item or items there, it'll display a little box with a button asking if you want to go ahead. This means 2 clicks at most. It would work for any type of building not just mexes.


And as said before ti could be mapped to alt+click using the selection editor.

So there's no reason why my suggestion isn't better, because if you want alt+click instead you can define it with the selection editor program, there is a choice, heck you could rebind it to # or the 0 on the numpad if you wanted.

[Felix the Cat]

A confirmation screen is ridiculous. It's Microsofting up Spring: "Are you sure you want to open this folder? It may contain important files!" It bloats the number of clicks necessary to issue the order, and popups of any sort are annoying as heck. Remember that the practical functionality of this is to upgrade mexes, and I'll be queuing up 5-15 of these orders at a time; it will be annoying to click "yes, I want to do this" for each one.

If I tell my builders to build something on top of another building, I want them to build something on top of another building. I don't want them to ask for confirmation, or ask if I am sure. I am not an idiot. If I screw up and they build an LLT over my advanced fusion, that's my fault.

I'm not particularly attached to one or another key to toggle build-over... ALT was just a suggestion, but it already has a useful feature bound to it, so maybe o + click or something.

The only notification or confirmation I'd support is if the text "[building2] will be built over [building1]" in the chat console - a simple notification of what will be done - nothing requiring more clicks.

[AF]

In that case you dont object to ym point, rather you misudnerstand it. Define alt+click todo what you want it in selection editor so that the popup doesnt appear if alt+click is used. very simple, only people dont seem to see that at all they're ignoring it and seeing the first part.

[Felix the Cat]

In that case you dont object to ym point, rather you misudnerstand it. Define alt+click todo what you want it in selection editor so that the popup doesnt appear if alt+click is used. very simple, only people dont seem to see that at all they're ignoring it and seeing the first part.

So essentially we're both saying the same thing, which is that some type or types of build-over should be a bindable behavior in the selection editor.

I still strongly object to any sort of popup requiring user confirmation of anything in-game.

[mehere101]

Popups are not the way to go. In general, popups are annoying and eventually people just blindly click "yes" anyhow. In other words the popup just annoys people, it doesn't make them think again. The best sugestion so far is the unit tags. It doesn't require any popups, or rebinding keys, or breaking current features.

[Zoombie]

I'm also against popups. I mean I can't count how many times i've just pressed 'yes', distracted by something else. And guess what? That 'yes' caused me to lose the game.

[Felix the Cat]

Popups are not the way to go. In general, popups are annoying and eventually people just blindly click "yes" anyhow. In other words the popup just annoys people, it doesn't make them think again. The best sugestion so far is the unit tags. It doesn't require any popups, or rebinding keys, or breaking current features.

But it's not a general solution, it's a specific one.

Allowing users to bind a key to build-over (reclaim then build) and to force-build (queue a build order in an invalid spot) through the selection keys editor would be useful in situations other than mex upgrading, and would be universal rather than mod-specific and thus would not add to the learning curve of various mods.

[Caydr]

Ohhh. Huh, didn't know alt was already mapped to something by default. Nevermind.

[Felix the Cat]

Ohhh. Huh, didn't know alt was already mapped to something by default. Nevermind.

As I said, it doesn't have to be alt (in fact I would prefer it not to be alt, as alt is a useful feature to me - builds blocks of buildings...)

[mongus]

the thing is, mex radius, makes this totally obsolete.

[ILMTitan]

I think Rafal99's idea of buildings to be reclaimed not blocking new construction is the best solution I've seen yet. It changes very little, yet fixes the problem. It does not require mapping or remembering another key, and works in a fairly intuitive way.

@Rafal99 The place you neeexisting looking is BuilderCAI.cpp line #743
necessarilyThat's where it checks for exsisting buildings. That's to make it functional, not neccessairily a visual change.

[Caydr]

Maybe if something is going to be reclaimed it could go semitransparent with a slowly pusling red overlay or something?

[Felix the Cat]

the thing is, mex radius, makes this totally obsolete.

No it doesn't, some maps use mex radii exactly the size of the metal patches.

[Decimator]

A better way would be to use ctrl, it doesn't do anything that can't be done with alt. I have been looking into this myself, and if I can ever figure out the relevant functions, I'll do it myself. :/