Apart form the bomber bug I really liked this mod. It lends itself to short sharp games far more than AA.
The best point thiugh brought up in this thread though is the confusing nature of the units. If their roles culd be made clearer and their relative strenghts and weakness highlighted it would really help new players.
Gundam annihilation
Moderator: Moderators
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architeuthis
- Posts: 86
- Joined: 15 Dec 2005, 20:47
I like the gundam mod (i never saw the anime), because:
- its much easier to learn then aa, already after 4 battles i understood most of it aspects.
- nice animations
- its an original completly new mod with new gameplay, just wat spring needs
Maybe it needs some superunits because i saw it was easy to dig yourself in with defence.
I am looking forward to that big zam and those commanders, thats just that little bit more wath gundam needs to make it perfect!
And maybe you can make such an autohost thingy?
Keep working on it there are still people who like your mod!
- its much easier to learn then aa, already after 4 battles i understood most of it aspects.
- nice animations
- its an original completly new mod with new gameplay, just wat spring needs
Maybe it needs some superunits because i saw it was easy to dig yourself in with defence.
I am looking forward to that big zam and those commanders, thats just that little bit more wath gundam needs to make it perfect!
And maybe you can make such an autohost thingy?
Keep working on it there are still people who like your mod!
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
I haven't been able to play it because I don't have much time for long RTS games right now. I haven't even been able to try EE yet since I PTed for it once, and it's gone through like 3 versions 
If EE and Gundam were playing during the occational times I get on I would be playing/specing those games in a second rather then AA games, but I'm restricted by the fact that I don't have two hours to wait for a gundam battleroom for a 2v2 to fill.
If EE and Gundam were playing during the occational times I get on I would be playing/specing those games in a second rather then AA games, but I'm restricted by the fact that I don't have two hours to wait for a gundam battleroom for a 2v2 to fill.
Information:
I will try and get into some of that later on in the wiki. It seems that more information on each unit will help alleviate the initial frustration to some degree. It took 2 days to make the original guide that is now in need of an update. I'll also try and cover things like aoe, weapon use etc.
I will try and make a lengthier guide for my mod, although you have to be a bit fair to me, there are many more players who are very familiar with ta and through that AA. That guide has been in the works for some time by many very bored fans. Up until now I have been focused on generating content for my mod and researching it. Something TA based mods do not have to do.
Universe FAQ
For what ever reason people are going to have stupid or otherwise needed desires for information. While they may be able to wiki for it I guess I can provide a summerized version for the mod.
I know now, more about gundam then I ever wanted to... btw the apsallus uses directx.. did you know that?
anyway, yeah I could provide some stuff detailing how beam rifles and all work but I sum it up with look. It is mean it burns or blows up and it glows. Like most sci-fi I dub it magic and shit.
I can explain enough though that people will understand that beam weapons are like balistic weapons mixed with lasers. That varies from beam implementation to beam implementation. However, I try to avoid cannon discussion and/or arguements over whether darth vader bitch to the ewoks can defeat a sixty+ foot tall mech. :)
Cannon VS Gameplay:
I make sacrifices where I can, for the most part the gundam games that I have seen do not have balance at all and the anime can be so inconsistent that it is mind blowing. However, in the year and a half that this mod has been worked on I have strived to stay for the most part both in look and feel true to cannon.
There are many elements such as close combat and unit limits that spring does not support. Untill it supports them and several other features MANY things are on the backburner. This sucks but I adapt the current mod accordingly. Until I get more support for features that the mod needs I have to shelf ideas and concepts.
Unit differentiation
This point has been brought up before. Hower, I find ota harder to tell apart then Gundam. In Gundam I have blue, yellow, white, seafoam, orange.. blah blah units. There is a lot of color variety; saying that they are all one mech with a different gun really just is asinine.
Some mechs are, that is because spring does not support the ability to have customizable units. So I have to occupy several sub units with a specific function.
I.E.
The above are the same frame. However, from above and the side they each have a unique silhouette.
Now take:
They at least have a color difference. Playing AA or the other OTA varients I feel like I am looking at a sea of grey.
In all honesty, it is all about playing a mod long enough to know. We have to learn the shapes and associate them to a function. Most of us have played enough OTA that it is obvious. The units otherwise really are not that different.
Tactics/Strategy
In all honesty, I have a few in mind designing the units. however, players will always use something in a way that you NEVER intended it to be used. It is because of this that I do not suggest too much. What I have on the wiki is all I am going to cover. I may make some squad suggestions in time but I prefer to not shove a structure on them.
Masse. I am not putting blood in so this classifies as "adult" to you. The scale in my mod is such that a person is tiny so tiny it would be next to un noticable. So that persons blood would be next to unnoticed. Unless the gundam is smashing a bus full of nuns NO BLOOD FOR YOU! :).
To all please keep the discussion going I am just weighing say that I understand your points and will work to accomodate them.
I will try and get into some of that later on in the wiki. It seems that more information on each unit will help alleviate the initial frustration to some degree. It took 2 days to make the original guide that is now in need of an update. I'll also try and cover things like aoe, weapon use etc.
I will try and make a lengthier guide for my mod, although you have to be a bit fair to me, there are many more players who are very familiar with ta and through that AA. That guide has been in the works for some time by many very bored fans. Up until now I have been focused on generating content for my mod and researching it. Something TA based mods do not have to do.
Universe FAQ
For what ever reason people are going to have stupid or otherwise needed desires for information. While they may be able to wiki for it I guess I can provide a summerized version for the mod.
I know now, more about gundam then I ever wanted to... btw the apsallus uses directx.. did you know that?
anyway, yeah I could provide some stuff detailing how beam rifles and all work but I sum it up with look. It is mean it burns or blows up and it glows. Like most sci-fi I dub it magic and shit. I can explain enough though that people will understand that beam weapons are like balistic weapons mixed with lasers. That varies from beam implementation to beam implementation. However, I try to avoid cannon discussion and/or arguements over whether darth vader bitch to the ewoks can defeat a sixty+ foot tall mech. :)
Cannon VS Gameplay:
I make sacrifices where I can, for the most part the gundam games that I have seen do not have balance at all and the anime can be so inconsistent that it is mind blowing. However, in the year and a half that this mod has been worked on I have strived to stay for the most part both in look and feel true to cannon.
There are many elements such as close combat and unit limits that spring does not support. Untill it supports them and several other features MANY things are on the backburner. This sucks but I adapt the current mod accordingly. Until I get more support for features that the mod needs I have to shelf ideas and concepts.
Unit differentiation
This point has been brought up before. Hower, I find ota harder to tell apart then Gundam. In Gundam I have blue, yellow, white, seafoam, orange.. blah blah units. There is a lot of color variety; saying that they are all one mech with a different gun really just is asinine.
Some mechs are, that is because spring does not support the ability to have customizable units. So I have to occupy several sub units with a specific function.
I.E.
The above are the same frame. However, from above and the side they each have a unique silhouette.
Now take:
They at least have a color difference. Playing AA or the other OTA varients I feel like I am looking at a sea of grey.
In all honesty, it is all about playing a mod long enough to know. We have to learn the shapes and associate them to a function. Most of us have played enough OTA that it is obvious. The units otherwise really are not that different.
Tactics/Strategy
In all honesty, I have a few in mind designing the units. however, players will always use something in a way that you NEVER intended it to be used. It is because of this that I do not suggest too much. What I have on the wiki is all I am going to cover. I may make some squad suggestions in time but I prefer to not shove a structure on them.
Masse. I am not putting blood in so this classifies as "adult" to you. The scale in my mod is such that a person is tiny so tiny it would be next to un noticable. So that persons blood would be next to unnoticed. Unless the gundam is smashing a bus full of nuns NO BLOOD FOR YOU! :).
To all please keep the discussion going I am just weighing say that I understand your points and will work to accomodate them.
Regarding unit differentiation, it's worth noting that even though some have notably different colors and slightly different silhouettes, almost all the Gundams are the same size--that's a major factor in differentiation! Yeah, maybe the coloring on a Flash versus Stumpy versus Bulldog doesn't differ much--and they all look like tanks. But no seasoned player will ever mix them up because the size difference is tremendous. Even though AA's Samson and Shellshocker are the same color, there is a huge difference in their shape. While you may add a weapon pack here or there to a Gundam, they still look like...Gundams. That was a key to the series--a really recognizable robot design. That was brilliant for Gundam. It's a bit less brilliant when you're mixing four different types of mechs together in one army. It's harder to tell at a glance just what is what. As specialized as each may be, together they just look like a "bunch of robots".
At least with OTA models, you know the level 1 kbots with the twin cylinders sticking out from them are your Hammers/Thuds, etc. Even if they're all colored fairly similarly.
As far as learning how to use the units goes, I don't think you need to explicitly describe what you would use them for. I think you just need to better describe what the units can do. If you say "this one has a weapon with longer reach than that other one, but it's slower", then the player knows how to integrate it into a battleplan. But if you just say "this mech has a beam rifle so you can cause some pretty high damage," the player has no clue what that means. Sure, anyone can learn it, but I think if you're just more explicit about the capabilities of each unit, people will figure out how to use them a lot more easily.
Although I have to say, I can't wait until melee combat is implemented--I think it's a pretty ignorable idea OTA-style, but beam saber fights would be fantastic. Although I assume making it look decent would be a scripting nightmare. I can just imagine the lines of mecha passing by each other, taking lazy swings at each other in a totally undramatic fashion, as per normal TA weapon logic. You'd probably need far more work put into the engine than mere melee combat to have intelligent parrying and such. Ah well.
At least with OTA models, you know the level 1 kbots with the twin cylinders sticking out from them are your Hammers/Thuds, etc. Even if they're all colored fairly similarly.
As far as learning how to use the units goes, I don't think you need to explicitly describe what you would use them for. I think you just need to better describe what the units can do. If you say "this one has a weapon with longer reach than that other one, but it's slower", then the player knows how to integrate it into a battleplan. But if you just say "this mech has a beam rifle so you can cause some pretty high damage," the player has no clue what that means. Sure, anyone can learn it, but I think if you're just more explicit about the capabilities of each unit, people will figure out how to use them a lot more easily.
Although I have to say, I can't wait until melee combat is implemented--I think it's a pretty ignorable idea OTA-style, but beam saber fights would be fantastic. Although I assume making it look decent would be a scripting nightmare. I can just imagine the lines of mecha passing by each other, taking lazy swings at each other in a totally undramatic fashion, as per normal TA weapon logic. You'd probably need far more work put into the engine than mere melee combat to have intelligent parrying and such. Ah well.
I just want to say that starcraft is not "dark" and "sinister" its more like cartoony and slighly futuristic..
Anywho.. erm the unit descriptions on that site have not been updated the units do not have descriptions that read "has a beam rifle" they read more along the lines of "fast assault" or "long range"..etc... secondly the mod is fun Im not positive it is expertly balanced in all ways possible but it is hella fun if you can get a decent game... and HTH combat would be cool if this engine was capable of remotely supporting that... meh..
Anywho.. erm the unit descriptions on that site have not been updated the units do not have descriptions that read "has a beam rifle" they read more along the lines of "fast assault" or "long range"..etc... secondly the mod is fun Im not positive it is expertly balanced in all ways possible but it is hella fun if you can get a decent game... and HTH combat would be cool if this engine was capable of remotely supporting that... meh..
Smoth:
As somebody who built a very keenly balanced, "you'd have to be a moron not to read the unit descriptions and not know what they do" mod with an instruction manual, lots of pre-release hype, very few units and a very deliberate attempt to visually differentiate them... erm... all that stuff is humbug. Pure humbug.
I already said my piece in my critique, and I stand by it. What you did was take the world of Gundam and put it in an OTA straightjacket. To make it really hum... remove the straightjacket. Think outside the box. Dump the units that are clearly redundant, or figure out new ways to make them visually and gameplay-distinct. Animate them differently- let some of them run, for example, instead of all using similar speeds. Give their weapons more differentiation, too. Too many of the weapons feel the same, even if, in game-designer world, they're very different animals. Quit worrying about the mechanical aspects of canon and be true to the source of canon- the dramatic gunfights and heroic exploits of Gundam.
In short, quit worrying about balance so much, and make it FUN. It's a neato artistic achievement, and it's not a terrible game design, but it just doesn't have a whole lot've hook to it yet. Spend more time on the flash, and clean up the problems later on
As somebody who built a very keenly balanced, "you'd have to be a moron not to read the unit descriptions and not know what they do" mod with an instruction manual, lots of pre-release hype, very few units and a very deliberate attempt to visually differentiate them... erm... all that stuff is humbug. Pure humbug.
I already said my piece in my critique, and I stand by it. What you did was take the world of Gundam and put it in an OTA straightjacket. To make it really hum... remove the straightjacket. Think outside the box. Dump the units that are clearly redundant, or figure out new ways to make them visually and gameplay-distinct. Animate them differently- let some of them run, for example, instead of all using similar speeds. Give their weapons more differentiation, too. Too many of the weapons feel the same, even if, in game-designer world, they're very different animals. Quit worrying about the mechanical aspects of canon and be true to the source of canon- the dramatic gunfights and heroic exploits of Gundam.
In short, quit worrying about balance so much, and make it FUN. It's a neato artistic achievement, and it's not a terrible game design, but it just doesn't have a whole lot've hook to it yet. Spend more time on the flash, and clean up the problems later on
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Theotherguy
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 11 Jul 2005, 02:01
Argh while u are right in the whole Gundam Anime is cool cause of huge explosions and over teh top weaponry and how badass gundam is. However if u did that no one would play as Zeon and u would see like three units all game. The big thing this needs to be like that is unit limits. With out it they can't be super awesome since they will pwn all in such a way that no one will want to play this game unless they can build only those units.
Honestly if u want whiz-bang super coolness u want Gundam Wing not this mod (whcih would be Universal Century and its variants).
Also this mod focuses more on a part of the anime not seen that much, ground wars. Most of the anime takes place in space where... well it doesn't really matter but needless to say a space battle is hella different from a ground war.
Also half the stuff isn't even do able (or is just plain retarded in its handling in the engine). Things like jump jets, close combat, and many others just arem't feasible.
Also smoth has taken a lot of liberties with canon. More than most people would know about, like there use to be no radar except the planes, but me and several others argued that while there should be to represent other targeting methods.
gah im just sick and tired of people hating on this mod esp IF THEY DON'T EVEN PLAY!!!! really WTH is wrong with you people. What if TA had been based on an anime what would u people do?? huh? refuse to play it. for gods sake play it atleast more the 5 times before u say F*%K this and leave.
God its just so ... frustrating. This mod is so fun and so damn good looking, and even if its a bit unbalanced the only way to get it balanced is to play the game. I'm probably a bit biased as i am on Teamspeak with Smoth daily, but that doesn't invalidate my points. So for my sake and Smoths, play the damn mod, hell play it with me and him and we'll show you the little nuances of it.
Honestly if u want whiz-bang super coolness u want Gundam Wing not this mod (whcih would be Universal Century and its variants).
Also this mod focuses more on a part of the anime not seen that much, ground wars. Most of the anime takes place in space where... well it doesn't really matter but needless to say a space battle is hella different from a ground war.
Also half the stuff isn't even do able (or is just plain retarded in its handling in the engine). Things like jump jets, close combat, and many others just arem't feasible.
Also smoth has taken a lot of liberties with canon. More than most people would know about, like there use to be no radar except the planes, but me and several others argued that while there should be to represent other targeting methods.
gah im just sick and tired of people hating on this mod esp IF THEY DON'T EVEN PLAY!!!! really WTH is wrong with you people. What if TA had been based on an anime what would u people do?? huh? refuse to play it. for gods sake play it atleast more the 5 times before u say F*%K this and leave.
God its just so ... frustrating. This mod is so fun and so damn good looking, and even if its a bit unbalanced the only way to get it balanced is to play the game. I'm probably a bit biased as i am on Teamspeak with Smoth daily, but that doesn't invalidate my points. So for my sake and Smoths, play the damn mod, hell play it with me and him and we'll show you the little nuances of it.
Thanks argh, that was a thoughtfull post.
I am doing what I can, some of the new stuff in this test version is a hand full of new animations. For example: the GM sniper. Take a look at him in the public test version:http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/suprise/
He aims his rifle much nicer then before but I added an extra touch where he tosses the rifle on his shoulder after he is done. It was done as a what-if and I left it in thinking it was a nice touch.
Is that what you are talking about?
I am doing what I can, some of the new stuff in this test version is a hand full of new animations. For example: the GM sniper. Take a look at him in the public test version:http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/suprise/
He aims his rifle much nicer then before but I added an extra touch where he tosses the rifle on his shoulder after he is done. It was done as a what-if and I left it in thinking it was a nice touch.
Is that what you are talking about?
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Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
I never said it made the game bad. Please don't put words in my mouth.Zoombie wrote:And I don't like the anime. Does it make the game bad? No. How many times do I must say this? The game is good, no matter how good or how bad the show is.Felix the Cat wrote: I've watched anime before.
It has zero redeeming value whatsoever. I feel like I get stupider just by watching it.
I haven't and don't plan to download this mod because I don't like anime. For all I know it's a great mod. Maybe if it gets to be very popular I'll download it. But right now its subject does not interest me and there are very rarely servers open for it, so I don't really care to spend the time downloading it.
Felix, I can understand matters of taste, it is ok. What I think zoombie is trying to say is that the mod is as much an anime as a desk is a tree.
The mod is based on anime and it stops there. I can respect your opinion and I appreciate the ferver zoombie but if felix does not like anime or anime inspired things it is his choice.
The mod is based on anime and it stops there. I can respect your opinion and I appreciate the ferver zoombie but if felix does not like anime or anime inspired things it is his choice.
That was it. And yes It is true that it is his choice, but its also my choice to arge with him. Its how I always say, with free speach "Your free to say whatever you want...and I'm free to argue with you".smoth wrote: What I think zoombie is trying to say is that the mod is as much an anime as a desk is a tree.
I voted other. The big things I see in Gundam:
PROS-
Gameplay is fast. Takes only a short time to get set up, and then BAM, action. Differentiated nicely from TA mods in gameplay because of this.
Those Epic coms rockxor my sockxors.
An elegant and cohesive visual style.
CONS-
Too many mechs! They are all just big robots with guns! This is not at all your fault smoth... it's mostly your source material. Don't get me wrong. I love mechs. But it's just too much- it's saturation. You see another mech with a gun, it's another mech with a gun, even if the color, or profile, or body type varies. The aircraft are of course a nice touch (especially since they are done so well - very nice looking) but really, I like games where there is maybe 3 or 4 similar units, tops. And you can't really go through your mod and pull out a bunch of the robots are replace them with tanks and trucks and artillery. It wouldn't look Gundam. (This is actually the same problem I have with EE - too many similar units.)
Too few servers. Hardly your fault.
In summary, it just doesn't push my buttons, but I don't think this is because of things you can change- it's just the way Gundam is.
PROS-
Gameplay is fast. Takes only a short time to get set up, and then BAM, action. Differentiated nicely from TA mods in gameplay because of this.
Those Epic coms rockxor my sockxors.
An elegant and cohesive visual style.
CONS-
Too many mechs! They are all just big robots with guns! This is not at all your fault smoth... it's mostly your source material. Don't get me wrong. I love mechs. But it's just too much- it's saturation. You see another mech with a gun, it's another mech with a gun, even if the color, or profile, or body type varies. The aircraft are of course a nice touch (especially since they are done so well - very nice looking) but really, I like games where there is maybe 3 or 4 similar units, tops. And you can't really go through your mod and pull out a bunch of the robots are replace them with tanks and trucks and artillery. It wouldn't look Gundam. (This is actually the same problem I have with EE - too many similar units.)
Too few servers. Hardly your fault.
In summary, it just doesn't push my buttons, but I don't think this is because of things you can change- it's just the way Gundam is.
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Deathblane
- Posts: 505
- Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 01:22
See, that's exactly where I found myself about a month back. I've clocked a lot of time on AA but often now I really feel like playing something slightly different.Rayden wrote:Well, i voted other but i guess soon i will start trying some mods cause slowly i have enough of Absolute Annihilation *duck*
No offense vs. AA but sometimes you just need some diversity.