Future of EU: "a Greath thud" a.k.a "Iso Jytky" from Finland

[SirArtturi]

wtf are you talking about ? seriously ? and btw all government budget are deficient ... what's your point ? you're not happy because i said fins are retarded ? don't worry i think the same about french ... actually i think most people are retarded but it's okay, as long as some people are not

No, what is your point? That finns are retarded because they are taking loan for bailouts? Is it wrong? Your arrogance here is what troubles me. Obviously you categorize yourself to those one who are not retarded, so what do you think is the best solution in this case? Good arguments are accepted, not insults.

Scifi,

Nice to hear an insight from a portuguese.

And we are not against helping your country, no hatred here, but some of the finns are getting sceptic if these bailout mechanisms will help but rather prolong the unevitable while damaging everybodys economics. As I said, sometimes debt restructuring could work better. (How would extension of payment sound like?)

[scifi]

wtf are you talking about ? seriously ? and btw all government budget are deficient ... what's your point ? you're not happy because i said fins are retarded ? don't worry i think the same about french ... actually i think most people are retarded but it's okay, as long as some people are not

No, what is your point? That finns are retarded because they are taking loan for bailouts? Is it wrong? Your arrogance here is what troubles me. Obviously you categorize yourself to those one who are not retarded, so what do you think is the best solution in this case? Good arguments are accepted, not insults.

Scifi,

Nice to hear an insight from a portuguese.

And we are not against helping your country, no hatred here, but some of the finns are getting sceptic if these bailout mechanisms will help but rather prolong the unevitable while damaging everybodys economics. As I said, sometimes debt restructuring could work better. (How would extension of payment sound like?)

Yes i do agree that it can prolong the unevitable, specialy during the times we live in, and not to mention the political class in my country, isnt qualified to deal with sutch a situation.

So what are our options, first i think money should be given in parts, and each part acounted for. But we do need the money, as every loan we try to get has a higher interest than the loan before.

Im a bit sceptical about the situation in my country but i do believe a good goverment will come out of the next elections.(so i hope).

Together with the money, a EU production plan could be made, what can be produced and exported, and guide the goverment towards that end, essencialy telling the areas to spend the money on.
Ofc this is impossible and impraticable to do.

What will save us in the long run, will be our relations with africa and venezuela e.t.c.. we have a couple companys, like:
Galp (oil extraction)
Sonae and PT(telocomunications - Brazil , Egypt, Angola).
Cimpor (cement production all around africa)

And a couple good software making companies that can employ fresh people that come out of some of the good universites that we have here.

Now the extra money from the EU:
The money could be spent in lowering taxes for these companys, and making acords between universities and the respective "job creating companys". As loong as the State lives, and reforms are made in education and in the departement of justice i think we will make it trou. And as loong a public help sistem is made to distribute food and some shelter among the poor (witch isnt that expensive, like using the excess food that schools produce, and giving land to people that want to cultivate theyr own food e.t.c..). we will survive and perhaps get back on our feet.

Obivous measures.
The market will become liberalised and salaries will drop, reaching the so called "german productive state". Since we cant compete that well in the market, salaries must drop. Also making heavy selling of state property, as our goverment owns insure companys, the telocomunication market is monopolised to the main state company, same as water and energy, ofc doing this while still mantaining the core public sector alive.

So your looking at here is the folowing, if we have a good government we will suceed and theres a good chance we will grow , there are good people out there , if we get a crappy goverment like we did before. Then my friend the best we can hope is another bailout or extension of debt like greece is looking for now.

It all resumes to this, good or bad goverment, restructuration of debt is a valid option but imo it doesnt give countrys the option to grow, but if nothing else presents, and if the next goverment fails its the last and only option.

[Cheesecan]

Despite what some here seem to think not all European governments accumulate debt perpetually. For instance the Swedish debt is down to 1,064,682 million crowns in march this year from 1,286,784 million crowns in January of 2005, while maintaining a strong GDP growth over those years, including a 8% growth last year and probably also a higher than average growth this year, when compared to EU mean.

A fiscally responsible government can reduce debt and have GDP growth at the same time. Portugal, Greece and Ireland are all countries with much recovery potential so it makes sense to lend money to them. While doing so the lenders gain leverage which can then be used to restructure the failing economies into tomorrows tiger economies. Europeans have been doing this to piss poor backwater countries all over the world for centuries, why the big outrage when it's necessary in Europe too? Silly people. The anti-EU sentiment has always been around and rears its head whenever the lower middle class begins to get a bit poorer than usual. Meanwhile the rest of the world shrugs and goes on.

The True Finns are nothing, Finland has a tiny population and they are tiny party, their 10 minutes in the spotlight area have already passed before they knew it. Get over it.

[Teutooni]

Democratic countries going bankrupt because of bad governance? Makes me wonder if democracy really is the best choice... I mean, come on, surely there are people qualified to govern a country, without going bankrupt, in any nation. Populist democracy doesn't care though, it will fill the parliaments with celebrities without half a brain, and forces decent politicians to refrain from difficult choices. ~~

Btw am I the only one thinking "true finns" is a poor translation. "Basic" would be the correct one, or "simple".

[scifi]

Democratic countries going bankrupt because of bad governance? Makes me wonder if democracy really is the best choice... I mean, come on, surely there are people qualified to govern a country, without going bankrupt, in any nation. Populist democracy doesn't care though, it will fill the parliaments with celebrities without half a brain, and forces decent politicians to refrain from difficult choices. ~~

Btw am I the only one thinking "true finns" is a poor translation. "Basic" would be the correct one, or "simple".

Teutooni

Exactly, but perhaps lets say the positions for public offices should be like job interviews opened to everyone and not based of politics.

And maybe instead of us voting in partys we vote in a face, a name apears, instead of the regular party name. This way maybe we could add responsability to politics.

[Regret]

Democracy is flawed. How can a vote of a mentally simple man weigh against vote of someone with superior intellect? Votes decide popularity, not validity.

People maybe are born equal (some are handicapped from the beginning) but they surely do not grow up to equal ability.

Capitalism is based upon dept, it sustains itself only by creating more dept, eventually it has to fall apart or create an infinite dept.

[PicassoCT]

If you look into a history book, you see that bankrupt states are actually the normal state of affairs. Hitler started his war nearly bankrupt. France was repeatedly banrkupt, before and after the revolution. Italy. Well, it was in constant civil warfare, because near bankrupt citystate rulers tried to pay there mercenarys with the booty of the neighborhood.
rome collapsed under coinage. Portugal and spain drowned the european continent in silver and gold from the new world, then the whole stuff got pumped into chronical banrkupt china.

Seems that those we vote into power, and those who want to get power, are incapable of well tending monetary buisness. Ironically the most free economy of them all, has also produced some of the most monstrous bubbles (the china debt, the housing bubble) and still you hear the standard propaganda phrases "The system is perfect, the idea is ideal, its just the evil (capitalism/worldconspiracy/state) that keeps heaven on earth from existing." Usually such blindness is not even cured by death and destruction.