These sort of riots demand a middleclass, this is why both tunisia and egypt were so prone to such riots.
Lebanon is another such example but it has no chance of a proper democracy cause of Hezbollah and syria-iran.
Lebanon, although is a much more open country and more modern is practically an anarchy right now.
Egypt
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Egypt
Sabutai wrote:Turkey is not an arab country. And they are leaning more to europe than to asia.scifi wrote:... jordânia migth be the only arab country after turkey and dubai...
ive already said they were a diferent culture
anyways they feel as a part of the arab world, they lean themselves to europe cause its where the economic and stability lies, the more close to europe turkey is the best for everyone, including turkey itself.
Re: Egypt
ofc, people are to afraid what opening our borders to the massive country that is turkey, all sorts of risks are present, imigration, terrorism, social disturbance, the fact that europe would have borders with the so called terrorists countrys, all sort of instable factours are present, the fact that members sutch as bulgaria or greece have border incidents with turkey, the list goes on and on, the fact that its people isnt tolerant, and turkey democratic goverment is in some forms a presidencial ditactorship. Europe would have to modernise and assimilate the military goals and objectives of turkey military. Giving to mutch and expecting to little isnt a good way to make things, turkey needs to change mutch more (maybe to mutch than they are able to rigth now, but i feel they will get there).Gota wrote:Well Europe wont accept turkey to the European union in the near future that's for sure.
But the advantages are clear, its the most stable, country in the region, its a good way to tie the west to the east, and develop that area both in a economic sence, and share a word of good will with the people that live there. Turkey is a possible market and a suply of raw materials, politicaly the union of turkey with europe would help assure the world west isnt an enemy of the arab world. Turkey military is big and a factor of power in the region.
Re: Egypt
sorry for double post
But beware that israel or turkey dont need to join european union as a whole, they could just share an internal market for starters the rest would come after.
but just want to say israel would be a fine adiction to the european union, that idea isnt that far, ofc a lot would need to change, but maybe in the space of 40 years (if things are about to change at all).
First countrys sutch as ucraine, and the former yugoslavian countrys sutch as bosnia, serbia. lot is to be done.
But beware that israel or turkey dont need to join european union as a whole, they could just share an internal market for starters the rest would come after.
but just want to say israel would be a fine adiction to the european union, that idea isnt that far, ofc a lot would need to change, but maybe in the space of 40 years (if things are about to change at all).
First countrys sutch as ucraine, and the former yugoslavian countrys sutch as bosnia, serbia. lot is to be done.
Re: Egypt
explain? its a dictatorship with police used as a tool of oppression. civilized is a stupid term to use here because it could be applied to absolutely everyone everywhere.sinbadEV wrote:civilized
explain further? sounds interestingAF wrote:If your in egypt your not there because your of Egyptian descent, your there because a guy in london in the 1800's or later draw a big black line with a ruler on a map, much to the objections of the kings and elders of the region claiming it wasn't that simple.
anyways i can't claim much knowledge of motivations, but i'd like to point out that the exact same shit happened in tunisia recently and nobody batted an eyelid. why is egypt so much more important than tunisia?
but anyways yeah get rid of this existing government, i want a digging permit to find the secret library buried in the ground in front of the sphinx
Re: Egypt
Israel is geographically not in Europe.
The EU would have to change to something more global in order to include a purely Asian country like Israel.
There is a powerful Asian block slowly forming which will probably be the world's leading political and economic block.
It will contain the biggest economies in the world i.e. china japan and India though Israel will not be included in it as well..
I think Israel is destined to remain by itself for a long time still, mostly cause of its very different culture and background from the rest of the countries around it.
It's different in religion history and the types of populations living in it.
It is Crystal clear when looking at the UN.
Israel was refused by the arab block but cannot associate itself fully with the Western block as well, it is by itself.
as for arab countries they still have decades if not centuries till they reach the same stage Europe is in right now...
Most of the countries here have extremely low export if we do not count raw materials.
They are very very behind on civil liberties free speech and in general their social structure is very backwards.
The EU would have to change to something more global in order to include a purely Asian country like Israel.
There is a powerful Asian block slowly forming which will probably be the world's leading political and economic block.
It will contain the biggest economies in the world i.e. china japan and India though Israel will not be included in it as well..
I think Israel is destined to remain by itself for a long time still, mostly cause of its very different culture and background from the rest of the countries around it.
It's different in religion history and the types of populations living in it.
It is Crystal clear when looking at the UN.
Israel was refused by the arab block but cannot associate itself fully with the Western block as well, it is by itself.
as for arab countries they still have decades if not centuries till they reach the same stage Europe is in right now...
Most of the countries here have extremely low export if we do not count raw materials.
They are very very behind on civil liberties free speech and in general their social structure is very backwards.
Re: Egypt
tunisia's future is much more predictable.It is a secular country with good ties to europe that has made many economical social and political reforms, it is pretty safely on its way to a more or less modern democracy, also it has nothing to do with the "middle-eastern" conflict That a huge number of arab countries tie themselves to.KaiserJ wrote:why is egypt so much more important than tunisia?
Egypt is the center of American activity here and its also the head of the arab league and its very closely related to the pipe dream(my own interpretation XD) that is called the peace process.
I wanna address my pessimistic outlook on the peace process here by pointing out the results of the al jazeera leaks about the Israeli Palestinian peace process.
you could immediately see that the Palestinian leadership immediately renounced any hints that they might have settled on anything or given up on any of their demands.
The leadership was clearly much more peaceful and ready to actually negotiate and give and take than the population.
That is ultimately the real problem.
The people themselves have no desire to settle on any issues especially since their "brothers" have been waiting in the refugee camps around the arab world for the past 60+ years to come back to Israel(they live with huge discrimination within those arab countries which do not assimilate them both for their own selfish reasons(of the host countries) and cause the Palestinian leadership always pressures for its people to not be assimilated properly even in countries like Jordan where the majority of the population is Palestinian).
Last edited by Gota on 29 Jan 2011, 22:20, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Egypt
Gota wrote:Israel is geographically not in Europe.
The EU would have to change to something more global in order to include a purely Asian country like Israel.
There is a powerful Asian block slowly forming which will probably be the world's leading political and economic block.
It will contain the biggest economies in the world i.e. china japan and India though Israel will not be included in it as well..
I think Israel is destined to remain by itself for a long time still, mostly cause of its very different culture and background from the rest of the countries around it.
It's different in religion history and the types of populations living in it.
It is Crystal clear when looking at the UN.
Israel was refused by the arab block but cannot associate itself fully with the Western block as well, it is by itself.
as for arab countries they still have decades if not centuries till they reach the same stage Europe is in right now...
Most of the countries here have extremely low export if we do not count raw materials.
They are very very behind on civil liberties free speech and in general their social structure is very backwards.
all this is true, but you forget one of israel goverment has proposed to the EU that israel could join the internal market of the european union that goods in israel and in the european union could circulate without the restrain that exists in israel about all incoming outgoing trafic.
This is a step, and this by no means that israel is part of europe, the european union is a lot more than a huge country, it has acords with countrys like pakistan and india, it forces free trade and equal partership.
Its a lot diferent to request membership than to join in a economic coalition, that countrys like pakistan are a part of.
Japan and south korea and even taiwan by no means will join up with china, its unthinkable and imposible and the tensions between india and china are about to break into an all out conflict.
Countrys like Burma are stages for a future economic and political war between india and china.
Re: Egypt
Oh, man europe having a border with i-ran, i-raq and syria + some russion borderline republicas ... wow thats awesome, how about a deal, we get amerigos south border, and you get turkey for thanksgiving.
You dont have to be overidealistic, just a slight eye for realpolitics and you realize this country is in the way to close to all the trouble.
Also islamists controlling the suez-cannal, trouble much? GOTA send the army then, or otherwise goods will be x-pensive...
You dont have to be overidealistic, just a slight eye for realpolitics and you realize this country is in the way to close to all the trouble.
Also islamists controlling the suez-cannal, trouble much? GOTA send the army then, or otherwise goods will be x-pensive...
Last edited by PicassoCT on 29 Jan 2011, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Egypt
You bet your ass..PicassoCT wrote: GOTA send the army then, or otherwise goods will be x-pensive...
the moment some islamist threaten to close the cannal youll be seeing the EU rooting for israeli "peace keeping" in that region...
Seriously though...Egypt has been arming itself with american machinery...
Re: Egypt
A lot of peoples in those regions had fluidic borders, or had no central location, but migrated according to weather patterns, or had local administrations. This is especially true of regions like saudi arabia and the countries to the north.
Much to the protest of the Saud King, the british drew a straight line across the map, impatient with the complexities being explained by the natives ( aka you cant jsut draw borders ). The British and their allies wanted nice divisions, and not one large country, after all, the reason they were there was to divide up one large country ( Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of WW1 ).
This has happened all over the world, and explains why european borders are fluid and fine grained, whereas borders in parts of asia and africa have prominent straight lines and angles. European delegates did not want to spend their careers allocating land piece by piece according to minor water resources, traversals of various tribes and cultures, or religious pilgrimage.
Much to the protest of the Saud King, the british drew a straight line across the map, impatient with the complexities being explained by the natives ( aka you cant jsut draw borders ). The British and their allies wanted nice divisions, and not one large country, after all, the reason they were there was to divide up one large country ( Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of WW1 ).
This has happened all over the world, and explains why european borders are fluid and fine grained, whereas borders in parts of asia and africa have prominent straight lines and angles. European delegates did not want to spend their careers allocating land piece by piece according to minor water resources, traversals of various tribes and cultures, or religious pilgrimage.
Re: Egypt
Really this has nothing to do with Egypt's lack of family planning and failing economy...AF wrote:stuff
There is only so much Europeans can feel guilty about.
In Israel some are somewhat afraid of Egypt cutting the gas delivery to Israel.
A big deposit of Gas has recently been found in Israeli territorial waters but If egypt cuts the gas pipe to Israel Prices of electricity will probably still go up.
Licho's link,a very clear explanation about Egypt's economy, shows at least to me that perhaps we shouldn't be too worried about it since Egypt Needs all the export it can get.
Re: Egypt
I still think that Egypt faces a great danger of becoming a radical religious state much like Iran.
Here is a nice summery of those who might take hold of Egypt's 80 million population.
The Brotherhood is an expansive and secretive society with followers in more than 70 countries, dedicated to creating a global Islamic order that would isolate women and punish nonbelievers. Its members and supporters founded al Qaeda, as well as one "of the largest college student groups in the United States."
The Muslim Brotherhood's 1982 secret plan, (the Project) recently exposed, instructs all members locally and globally "To channel thought, education and action in order to establish an Islamic power [government] on the earth."
The Muslim Brotherhood has historically and continues to actively pursue the establishment of a Muslim regime that will serve as the basis to re-establish the Caliphate, not only by defending violence against civilians, The current leader of the international Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammad Mahdi Akef, "recently issued a new strategy calling on all its member organizations to serve its global agenda of defeating the West. He called on individual members of the Muslim Brotherhood worldwide to not only join the "resistance" to the U.S. financially, but also through active participation."
In an interview to the London based Asharq Al-Awsat, an international Arab newspaper on December 11, 2005, Mohammad Mahdi Akef stated that "the Muslim Brotherhood is a global movement whose members cooperate with each other throughout the world, based on the same religious worldview - the spread of Islam, until it rules the world."
Akef also stated: "We are in the global arena, and we preach for Allah according to the guidelines of the Muslim Brotherhood. All the members of the Muslim Brotherhood in the international arena operate according to the written charter that states that Jihad is the only way to achieve these goals." Akef emphasized, "A Muslim in the international arena, who believes in the charter of the Muslim Brotherhood is considered part of us and we are considered part of him." In other words, all those who believe Jihad is the only way to achieve world domination of Islam are a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and we are a part of them according to Akef.
The Brotherhood has long been actively supporting global jihadi efforts. Prior to the U.S.-led attack on the Taliban regime, the Muslim Brotherhood actually had training camps in Afghanistan where it worked with Kashmiri militants and sought to expand its influence in Central Asian states, especially Tajikistan. It is not surprising, therefore, that the Muslim Brotherhood reacted to Hamas' January 2006 electoral victory in Palestine not merely as a local achievement, but "a victory of the Islamic nation in its entirety." And as we now see another militant Muslim group i.e. Hezbollah has ruthlessly plundered the established government in Lebanon and has set up its own renegade takeover there and appointing Hezbollah-backed Najib Mikati as its next prime minister.
As the parent of all Sunni and many other Islamist terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, to deflect attention, uses its long-term strategy, known as "flexibility" (muruna in Arabic). This chameleon-like adaptation is tactical moderation with the ultimate objective of complete Islamization of society. Indeed, the MB's 1982 project calls on members "To reconcile international engagement with flexibility at a local level." As stated on its charter and its website, the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to install an Islamic totalitarian empire, a worldwide Caliphate, through stages designed to Islamize targeted nations by whatever means available - including the United States.
In the end, the Muslim Brotherhood intends to overthrow all secular governments and impose Islamic law (Shari'a) worldwide, and it is diligently pursuing this goal. In July 2005, former Kuwaiti minister of education Dr. Ahmad Al-Rab'i, wrote in the Arabic London daily, Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "The beginnings of all of the religious terrorism that we are witnessing today were in the Muslim Brotherhood's ideology." Thus, on its website, the Muslim Brotherhood advocates, "Establishing the Islamic government."
Building the Muslim state...Building the Khilafa...Mastering the world with Islam,"; however, would necessarily deprive Americans of their First Amendment, rights. The first clause in the Amendment states there shall be "no law respecting an establishment of religion." The First Amendment also upholds an individual's right to religious freedom. But as determined by its doctrine, the Muslim Brotherhood would exploit that right--along with First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and assembly--to actively seek the imposition of laws that would deny religious freedom to everyone else.
Clearly, the Muslim Brotherhood strives for Muslim supremacy, often violently.
The Muslim Brotherhood's readiness to use violence was demonstrated in the U.S., in 1993 with the bombing the World trade Center in NYC. Exiled MB leader, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, in U.S. prison for plotting this attack, also planned to blow up bridges and tunnels in Manhattan. Since then, the Muslim Brotherhood affiliated groups in the U.S., focused their activities and agenda to condition American minds and behavior to create an Islamic foundation from which violence can spring when the time is right.
Moreover, the Muslim Brotherhoods' guiding principles celebrate its major [and continuing] role in the struggle to liberate Muslims lands. The ikhwan's (Muslim Brotherhood's) bravery in the 1948 Palestine war has been recorded by all sides. The total number of volunteers from the ikhwan in 1948 numbered 10,000 from Egypt, Syria and other countries. In addition to participating in the battle to liberate Palestine, they served to raise the consciousness of Muslims all over the Islamic World and restore to them the spirit of struggle and dignity. The ikhwan have played a role in liberating Muslim lands from colonialist powers in almost every Muslim country. The ikhwan were active amongst Muslims in Central Asian Muslim republics since the '70s, and their involvement can be seen recently in such republics as Tajikistan. More recently they had a major role in the struggle for Afghanistan and Kashmir. And now too, in Egypt, you will also notice the Muslim Brotherhood trying their very best to topple Mubarak's regime and then to set up a radicalized Muslim nation with strict sharia law governance established in its place. Sharia law will be instituted along with all freedoms and liberties being banished from Egypt as well, in my opinion. If the Egyptian people think they had it bad under the moderate Hosni Mubarak wait until the radicalized and suppressive Muslim Brotherhood gain control, if indeed, they do. What the Egyptian people have now is a veritable "walk in the park" compared to what awaits them under a radicalized sharia law Muslim nation which the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to inflict upon the Egyptian people.
Make no mistake. The Muslim Brotherhood is hell bent on gaining more and more traction and influence in every country around the world, and that includes, within the United States of America. And if our government, and others, neglect to rein them in or slough them off as no significant or real threat to America or other nations, then they are undeniably fooling themselves and are playing with fire and should be called out as such. Including the onerous and misinformed Bruce Riedel who should be ashamed of himself for propping up and downplaying a certified "terrorist" group which the Muslim Brotherhood have shown themselves to definitely be and continue to be.
I haven't checked all the facts presented here but its definately in the right direction.
Here is a nice summery of those who might take hold of Egypt's 80 million population.
The Brotherhood is an expansive and secretive society with followers in more than 70 countries, dedicated to creating a global Islamic order that would isolate women and punish nonbelievers. Its members and supporters founded al Qaeda, as well as one "of the largest college student groups in the United States."
The Muslim Brotherhood's 1982 secret plan, (the Project) recently exposed, instructs all members locally and globally "To channel thought, education and action in order to establish an Islamic power [government] on the earth."
The Muslim Brotherhood has historically and continues to actively pursue the establishment of a Muslim regime that will serve as the basis to re-establish the Caliphate, not only by defending violence against civilians, The current leader of the international Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammad Mahdi Akef, "recently issued a new strategy calling on all its member organizations to serve its global agenda of defeating the West. He called on individual members of the Muslim Brotherhood worldwide to not only join the "resistance" to the U.S. financially, but also through active participation."
In an interview to the London based Asharq Al-Awsat, an international Arab newspaper on December 11, 2005, Mohammad Mahdi Akef stated that "the Muslim Brotherhood is a global movement whose members cooperate with each other throughout the world, based on the same religious worldview - the spread of Islam, until it rules the world."
Akef also stated: "We are in the global arena, and we preach for Allah according to the guidelines of the Muslim Brotherhood. All the members of the Muslim Brotherhood in the international arena operate according to the written charter that states that Jihad is the only way to achieve these goals." Akef emphasized, "A Muslim in the international arena, who believes in the charter of the Muslim Brotherhood is considered part of us and we are considered part of him." In other words, all those who believe Jihad is the only way to achieve world domination of Islam are a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and we are a part of them according to Akef.
The Brotherhood has long been actively supporting global jihadi efforts. Prior to the U.S.-led attack on the Taliban regime, the Muslim Brotherhood actually had training camps in Afghanistan where it worked with Kashmiri militants and sought to expand its influence in Central Asian states, especially Tajikistan. It is not surprising, therefore, that the Muslim Brotherhood reacted to Hamas' January 2006 electoral victory in Palestine not merely as a local achievement, but "a victory of the Islamic nation in its entirety." And as we now see another militant Muslim group i.e. Hezbollah has ruthlessly plundered the established government in Lebanon and has set up its own renegade takeover there and appointing Hezbollah-backed Najib Mikati as its next prime minister.
As the parent of all Sunni and many other Islamist terrorist groups, the Muslim Brotherhood, to deflect attention, uses its long-term strategy, known as "flexibility" (muruna in Arabic). This chameleon-like adaptation is tactical moderation with the ultimate objective of complete Islamization of society. Indeed, the MB's 1982 project calls on members "To reconcile international engagement with flexibility at a local level." As stated on its charter and its website, the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to install an Islamic totalitarian empire, a worldwide Caliphate, through stages designed to Islamize targeted nations by whatever means available - including the United States.
In the end, the Muslim Brotherhood intends to overthrow all secular governments and impose Islamic law (Shari'a) worldwide, and it is diligently pursuing this goal. In July 2005, former Kuwaiti minister of education Dr. Ahmad Al-Rab'i, wrote in the Arabic London daily, Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "The beginnings of all of the religious terrorism that we are witnessing today were in the Muslim Brotherhood's ideology." Thus, on its website, the Muslim Brotherhood advocates, "Establishing the Islamic government."
Building the Muslim state...Building the Khilafa...Mastering the world with Islam,"; however, would necessarily deprive Americans of their First Amendment, rights. The first clause in the Amendment states there shall be "no law respecting an establishment of religion." The First Amendment also upholds an individual's right to religious freedom. But as determined by its doctrine, the Muslim Brotherhood would exploit that right--along with First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and assembly--to actively seek the imposition of laws that would deny religious freedom to everyone else.
Clearly, the Muslim Brotherhood strives for Muslim supremacy, often violently.
The Muslim Brotherhood's readiness to use violence was demonstrated in the U.S., in 1993 with the bombing the World trade Center in NYC. Exiled MB leader, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, in U.S. prison for plotting this attack, also planned to blow up bridges and tunnels in Manhattan. Since then, the Muslim Brotherhood affiliated groups in the U.S., focused their activities and agenda to condition American minds and behavior to create an Islamic foundation from which violence can spring when the time is right.
Moreover, the Muslim Brotherhoods' guiding principles celebrate its major [and continuing] role in the struggle to liberate Muslims lands. The ikhwan's (Muslim Brotherhood's) bravery in the 1948 Palestine war has been recorded by all sides. The total number of volunteers from the ikhwan in 1948 numbered 10,000 from Egypt, Syria and other countries. In addition to participating in the battle to liberate Palestine, they served to raise the consciousness of Muslims all over the Islamic World and restore to them the spirit of struggle and dignity. The ikhwan have played a role in liberating Muslim lands from colonialist powers in almost every Muslim country. The ikhwan were active amongst Muslims in Central Asian Muslim republics since the '70s, and their involvement can be seen recently in such republics as Tajikistan. More recently they had a major role in the struggle for Afghanistan and Kashmir. And now too, in Egypt, you will also notice the Muslim Brotherhood trying their very best to topple Mubarak's regime and then to set up a radicalized Muslim nation with strict sharia law governance established in its place. Sharia law will be instituted along with all freedoms and liberties being banished from Egypt as well, in my opinion. If the Egyptian people think they had it bad under the moderate Hosni Mubarak wait until the radicalized and suppressive Muslim Brotherhood gain control, if indeed, they do. What the Egyptian people have now is a veritable "walk in the park" compared to what awaits them under a radicalized sharia law Muslim nation which the Muslim Brotherhood seeks to inflict upon the Egyptian people.
Make no mistake. The Muslim Brotherhood is hell bent on gaining more and more traction and influence in every country around the world, and that includes, within the United States of America. And if our government, and others, neglect to rein them in or slough them off as no significant or real threat to America or other nations, then they are undeniably fooling themselves and are playing with fire and should be called out as such. Including the onerous and misinformed Bruce Riedel who should be ashamed of himself for propping up and downplaying a certified "terrorist" group which the Muslim Brotherhood have shown themselves to definitely be and continue to be.
I haven't checked all the facts presented here but its definately in the right direction.
Re: Egypt
Man, its wonderfull, how the humand mind can outsource all the phailure produced by a ideology. Not one sunni-state succesfull, yet the fault lies heavy on the oildependent west. And the reestablishement of the qualifat Wow, some Shepardskingdoms, conquered in a sort of snowball system, decorated with imported science and dhimli (jewish and christian-society) and then loosing same alexandrian empire, that is something to wish for?
We should do this with spring. Everything phailinflailing is part of a outside conspirarcy of the best.
We should do this with spring. Everything phailinflailing is part of a outside conspirarcy of the best.