http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/201 ... ve-updates
So who you rooting for?
Egypt
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Egypt
first of all, f*ck, you stole this thread from me.
Now,You didn't present the sides...
There is:
#1 Mubarac - the current dictator that has been ruling Egypt for 30 years.
#2 the Muslims brotherhood - the biggest oppositional group, radical muslims.
#3 Army.
#4 The educated secular middle class and the weak moderate democratic groups.
Now,You didn't present the sides...
There is:
#1 Mubarac - the current dictator that has been ruling Egypt for 30 years.
#2 the Muslims brotherhood - the biggest oppositional group, radical muslims.
#3 Army.
#4 The educated secular middle class and the weak moderate democratic groups.
Re: Egypt
We are in East Alexandria. Immediately after prayer, the people came out of mosque with banners and started marching, shouting 'we are peaceful, we are peaceful'. Security arrived and immediately began shooting teargas and rubber bullets at peaceful protesters, about 600. Then one-hour rock throwing clash, but police didn't advance more than one block and kept being pushed back. Then a massive column of protesters came from the other direction and blocked in police, holding up their hands and shouting we are peaceful. Right now police is held up in the yard of mosque and protesters all around, police can't move. They repeatedly ran out of teargas and begged protesters to stop, protesters telling them to join them.
Re: Egypt
I think you're overanalyzing the factionalism of the situation, Gota.
From what I've heard, it sounds like most of the protesters are just young people screaming IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID! GIVE US JERBS!!!!! not necessarily beholden to liberal or fundamentalist ideology. A massive baby boom has grown up and has found out there's absolute shite waiting for them at adulthood.
From what I've heard, it sounds like most of the protesters are just young people screaming IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID! GIVE US JERBS!!!!! not necessarily beholden to liberal or fundamentalist ideology. A massive baby boom has grown up and has found out there's absolute shite waiting for them at adulthood.
Re: Egypt
Of course, but someone will eventually take the power to his hands, you need adequate people that others are familiar with and/or who hold a lot of power already.
Rioting and anarchy cant last forever.
eventually one of those "factions" will take the reigns.
the outcome of this putsch might decide the future of the middle-east for the next decades.
Rioting and anarchy cant last forever.
eventually one of those "factions" will take the reigns.
the outcome of this putsch might decide the future of the middle-east for the next decades.
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Machete234
- Posts: 642
- Joined: 12 Feb 2010, 11:55
Re: Egypt
Hopefully it becomes a military dictatorship/police state like turkey that would be the best that could happen.
At least it would be a secular state then.
A somewhat fascistoid regime is better than sharia.
At least it would be a secular state then.
A somewhat fascistoid regime is better than sharia.
Re: Egypt
bro, that is what the people are up in arms against. Mubarack has done exactly that for the past N years, a secular dictatorship.Machete234 wrote:Hopefully it becomes a military dictatorship/police state like turkey that would be the best that could happen.
At least it would be a secular state then.
A somewhat fascistoid regime is better than sharia.
Re: Egypt
It already *is* a military dictatorship/police state. Something tells me that crap won't fly twice.Machete234 wrote:Hopefully it becomes a military dictatorship/police state like turkey that would be the best that could happen.
At least it would be a secular state then.
A somewhat fascistoid regime is better than sharia.
What do you mean? From what I've read, the only thing Carter did was refuse the Shah entry into the USA, and by that point Iran's ship had already sailed.Gota wrote:We all know what happened after the US opposed the Shaah in Iran(with dear old Jimmie carter)...
A Muslim fundamentalist regime...
Yup. I don't think anybody has any illusions that the Egyptian government is anything but a strong ally of the USA in the middle east. Egypt has been pretty much buddy-buddy with the USA ever since Carter managed to fix the aftermath of the Yom Kippur War.Otherside wrote:inb4 Islam blames the US for supporting the oppressive regime by supplying them with weapons.
Kind of a fail when all the gas canisters being fired at protesters say made in the USA.
Either way, anybody who wants to point to the harsh realpolitik of American involvement in Egypt can still be reminded that Egypt is still one of the nicer non-oil-rich countries of the region. I'd rather be in Cairo than Baghdad or Tehran. Things could be a lot freaking worse there.
Last edited by Pxtl on 28 Jan 2011, 20:24, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Egypt
Jimmie carter forced the Shah to allow more political freedom which eventually allowed the shah to be overthrown.
I'd guess that if it wasn't for the pressure to Iran would now be in many ways similar to European constitutional monarchies and it would be secular.
I think the ideal result of these riots would be a transitional government led by Mubarac that would enact democratic reforms and than after a few years allow true democratic elections.
I'm not sure if its a possible outcome though, since the rioters are calling for Mubarak to leave immediately.
On the other hand if Mubarac suppresses these riots will he enact the proper reforms or will it all just continue to fester like after previous cases of uprisings in Egypt.
I'd guess that if it wasn't for the pressure to Iran would now be in many ways similar to European constitutional monarchies and it would be secular.
I think the ideal result of these riots would be a transitional government led by Mubarac that would enact democratic reforms and than after a few years allow true democratic elections.
I'm not sure if its a possible outcome though, since the rioters are calling for Mubarak to leave immediately.
On the other hand if Mubarac suppresses these riots will he enact the proper reforms or will it all just continue to fester like after previous cases of uprisings in Egypt.
Re: Egypt
I just got to say its a heck of a coincidence that all north african countrys are having civil unrest, morroco will be next.
I agree that this is a consequence of a huge baby boom, and that the young society wishes to change things for the better, either be it in a extreme way or not.
Something is on the move here, economic issues migth be an escuse to overtrow the current regime, and install something more extreme.
Still ive got to say jordânia, that has a semi-democratic regime has been semi sucessefull in mantaining its society together.
After the end of the ditactorship after the war with israel, jordânia migth be the only arab country after turkey and dubai, that has a stable society.
But lets assume the worse, that tunis egypt and algeria fall to extremists groups, they could hold power sure, but it would hapen the same as with Aser Arafat, a extremist ditactorship/police state, civil strife would hapen for sure, only forseeable problem would be the amount of oil reserves witch can allow for a spread of terrorists attacks. People forget these countrys were comunist. Ideology in the arab world disapears fast, there isnt sutch a thing as a syrian egyptian or tunisian identity, what tells people apart is religion in the arab world and this is a problem.
People in afganistan dont consider them afganis, they consider themselves arabs and islamic, this is the foremost problem, they follow political trends mutch like we europeans did by the time of the liberal revolutions in europe. States were forced to control and take harsh measures, while alowing and giving more freedom to the people themselves by steps. Only diference is these countrys are poor, and lack the political space and economy to make changes in theyr societys.
Osama is an old man, probably its someone else rulling and causing chaos, in the world, we are dealling with his legacy more than a actual and real threat.
I agree that this is a consequence of a huge baby boom, and that the young society wishes to change things for the better, either be it in a extreme way or not.
Something is on the move here, economic issues migth be an escuse to overtrow the current regime, and install something more extreme.
Still ive got to say jordânia, that has a semi-democratic regime has been semi sucessefull in mantaining its society together.
After the end of the ditactorship after the war with israel, jordânia migth be the only arab country after turkey and dubai, that has a stable society.
But lets assume the worse, that tunis egypt and algeria fall to extremists groups, they could hold power sure, but it would hapen the same as with Aser Arafat, a extremist ditactorship/police state, civil strife would hapen for sure, only forseeable problem would be the amount of oil reserves witch can allow for a spread of terrorists attacks. People forget these countrys were comunist. Ideology in the arab world disapears fast, there isnt sutch a thing as a syrian egyptian or tunisian identity, what tells people apart is religion in the arab world and this is a problem.
People in afganistan dont consider them afganis, they consider themselves arabs and islamic, this is the foremost problem, they follow political trends mutch like we europeans did by the time of the liberal revolutions in europe. States were forced to control and take harsh measures, while alowing and giving more freedom to the people themselves by steps. Only diference is these countrys are poor, and lack the political space and economy to make changes in theyr societys.
Osama is an old man, probably its someone else rulling and causing chaos, in the world, we are dealling with his legacy more than a actual and real threat.
Re: Egypt
The islamic religion is a problem (but I am an atheist so I am anti religion 100 percent so I might be biased) The main reason these protests went so far today is because Mosques told their followers to protest.
Tbh if the Religious powers took over Egypt it would be horrible. The army has the power atm all I hope is that the current president is forced out and that they hold elections for a new ruling party.
And I do agree that Morocco will be next. I will keep an eye on this closely as this really does affect me seeing as Gibraltar has a close vicinity to Morocco and a percentage of our population is Moroccan.
In the end of the day I am glad that these revolutions are happening, its about time that these oppressive regimes get overthrown.
Tbh if the Religious powers took over Egypt it would be horrible. The army has the power atm all I hope is that the current president is forced out and that they hold elections for a new ruling party.
And I do agree that Morocco will be next. I will keep an eye on this closely as this really does affect me seeing as Gibraltar has a close vicinity to Morocco and a percentage of our population is Moroccan.
In the end of the day I am glad that these revolutions are happening, its about time that these oppressive regimes get overthrown.
Re: Egypt
If your in egypt your not there because your of Egyptian descent, your there because a guy in london in the 1800's or later draw a big black line with a ruler on a map, much to the objections of the kings and elders of the region claiming it wasn't that simple.
A note about Jordan, their royal family is seen as being much more involved with the affairs of common society, whereas in other countries, this is used as a parallel to compare with the people in that country who live off of the state funds for their royal or presidential palaces yet do nothing for what they're given. Thus its explained to me that the Jordanian Royalty makes an effort to justify their presence, yet in other countries they are undeserving and are not grateful.
A note about Jordan, their royal family is seen as being much more involved with the affairs of common society, whereas in other countries, this is used as a parallel to compare with the people in that country who live off of the state funds for their royal or presidential palaces yet do nothing for what they're given. Thus its explained to me that the Jordanian Royalty makes an effort to justify their presence, yet in other countries they are undeserving and are not grateful.
Re: Egypt
Jordan is in no way a democracy...The monarch rules and all opposition is oppressed by force.
@Scifi
It is not the baby boomers...
Baby booming is good for the economy...
The problem is the corruption and the fall of the dollar and the rise of the fuel and food prices all over the world...
When the majority of the population is already super poor any small changes in the prices of basic products immediately creates unrest.
Also the information and social and communications networks allowed the public to easily arrange demonstrations and motivate each other to act.
@Scifi
It is not the baby boomers...
Baby booming is good for the economy...
The problem is the corruption and the fall of the dollar and the rise of the fuel and food prices all over the world...
When the majority of the population is already super poor any small changes in the prices of basic products immediately creates unrest.
Also the information and social and communications networks allowed the public to easily arrange demonstrations and motivate each other to act.
Re: Egypt
Basic: i agree with your post, still egypt does have overcrowding population centers, generalised hunger, and ofc it had a ditactorship that has been in power for to loong, true but the thing that changed the current circustance was the new generation, a generation that sees its future as grim, and due to globalisation and unemployment stuff doesnt get better. Still even if prices didnt go up, that was a situation that couldnt be avoided, as far as my knowdledge of the region goes.Johannes wrote:Turkey, arab country?scifi wrote:After the end of the ditactorship after the war with israel, jordânia migth be the only arab country after turkey and dubai, that has a stable society.
Still id live better with a jordanian monarchy, witch in all intend and purposes is a ditactorship, but mantains a certain amount of conection to the people, the state isnt a police state, still the fact that jordania doesnt have sutch huge population centers, or maybe the fact it doesnt have any natural resources at all, maybe these are the causes for stability.
Johannes:
sorry for the mistake, turkey does have a distinct culture, but they consider themselves part of the arab world.
AF: Most of the problems in israel and in the middle east are due to the british giving idependance as they see fit and not based in regional populations, completly agree.
Facts that support this
Shape of israel, the fact that palestine wasnt given to jordania or syria, they have the same culture, palestine doesnt exists as a seperate identity, migth as well give the area to a adjacent country that had enough power to hold and give stability, the concept of stability didnt exist when the descolonization was made, the british gave land to the most strong leaders. In palestine there was the Grand mufti, witch could have been the gretest deterrant to give palestine to jordania instead, a local murder and religious fanatical leader. They just did it clean and fast, give it to the strongest, ofc this created a ton of problems in current history.
otherside: all religion that bases itself in theyr own superioraty to the one of others is a bad religion, (i can say i migth be biased as well) but this is my point of view, i respect all religions, but truth be told every single person enjoys living well and good. They want either way to achieve a good status to live upon, and some have the god complex.
But religion aside the problem in these countrys are that the state is fragile, and a national identity isnt present.
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Machete234
- Posts: 642
- Joined: 12 Feb 2010, 11:55
Re: Egypt
Ok then I think it is the lesser evil.BaNa wrote:bro, that is what the people are up in arms against. Mubarack has done exactly that for the past N years, a secular dictatorship.Machete234 wrote:Hopefully it becomes a military dictatorship/police state like turkey that would be the best that could happen.
At least it would be a secular state then.
A somewhat fascistoid regime is better than sharia.
Morocco has a king but people can vote so I dont think there will be riots or that the king will be overthrown.Otherside wrote: And I do agree that Morocco will be next. I will keep an eye on this closely as this really does affect me seeing as Gibraltar has a close vicinity to Morocco and a percentage of our population is Moroccan.