Tactical Nuke (Core) needs a buff...

[Wombat]

awww, it cannot be that bad and when my arguments failed lol. t2 mms at front? like i said it shouldnt kill base with 1 shot, its made for crippling it. its quite obvious u need some forward position to use it >> when ur arguments obviously failed u just run away.

plz tell me how making units is bad ? im happy that tac nuke is rarely used. i would be happy if every turret were like this. u whine about BA being porcy but want to give players another reason to spam static weapons. n1

[gonpost]

Tac nuke launcher is fantastic when both sides are trenched in, or if the enemy has a forward base that needs to die. I don't often use tac nukes, but when I do, it's almost always to a great effect. And I usually build two of them. You can comm snipe with them if the opportunity arises that way.

Besides, how often do you get something with a fairly big range and decent damage that can't be stopped by anything (no plasma shields, anti nukes, etc)? I think they cost what, 800 metal or so. That's a cheap investment in a T2/T3 war for something that effectively defends its entire radius from any buildings.

EMP launcher is useful too, but I really only use it for disabling anti nukes. The window that it gives you to charge a disabled front line isn't bad, though. It's just hard to coordinate that kind of attack with allies, so I don't often do it.

[Aether_0001]

Well, I thought tactnuke was for sniping antis when I used it (heck, it's the counterpart to emp nuke) but it doesn't have nearly enough range to hit anything farther than 10 feet behind the defense, (and rarely do people make eco near their frontline defense) and doesn't do enough damage to hurt a defense line very well... at least not fast enough to do anything significant before enemy diverts atom bombers onto your launcher (hey, liche can also 1-shot tac nukes), while they make reinforcements to instantly rebuild their wall.

T2 bombers can do everything a tactical nuke can do, and better - why even bother putting 3K metal outside your own base that can easily get destroyed?

EMP nuke guarantees anything within its range can get nuked, but what can tactical nuke do? The damage it deals can easily be repaired.

[BaNa]

I play arm 99% of the time.

I've had it used against me a few times. It is always one of those WTF things when done well, you have no idea what hit your base. Really, the thing with it is that its uncounterable, so it has to be worse for cost than other, counterable units.

Comparison with the arm emp missile is interesting, because the only use EMP sees in games is emping enemy anti, which fails if he has multiple antis. Tacnuke can take out anything (when spammed). Actually, you can make 10 tacnuke silos for the cost of 1 cornuke.


Only change I could imagine is making missile a bit cheaper, maybe to around 350-400 (from 550), but don't tell me that is the reason people arent using tacnukes.

Also > use modinfo people, tacnuke silo costs ~770 m, not 3k

[Wombat]

T2 bombers can do everything a tactical nuke can do, and better - why even bother putting 3K metal outside your own base that can easily get destroyed?

dude, wake up, tac doesnt cost 3k m and bombers can be stopped, tac not...

[BaNa]

pic related

[Niobium]

First, get some stats out of the way...

Silo Cost: 754m / 13067e / 58927 buildtime
Missile Cost: 550m / 17437e / 75 seconds (Drain of -7.8m / -248e)
Damage: 2500, 500 vs commander.
Not stopped by antis.

Damage is extremely low, doesn't 1 hit an HLT, takes 3 direct hits to kill a pitbull. Continuously firing one gives you a DPS of 33, less than that of a flea, so you need a whole set of catalysts if you want to kill anything (not worth it).

Range is actually OK, it only looks bad when compared to the overpowered range of the bertha or EMP launcher.

Basically this leaves them in a role of nano/metalmaker killer, where you push up (maybe sneaking up), set up a catalyst, and destroy the production of a base. As a role this is great, similar to how push->bomb works, but without the need for pre-spammed fighters and bombers.

The problem in achieving this is the catalysts high buildtime (metal:bt is 1:80, standard ratio is 1:20) and relatively high stockpile time (over a minute), so unless you have more than 5 freakers lying around you'll be sitting there for ~3 minutes before the missile goes off, during which time they'll likely find your catalyst with a scout (in-progress buildings stick out alot) or siege your units enough while you are sitting there, given that you are in bertha range, that you have to pull back before it finishes. Compare this to the put-flakkers-under-fighters-send-bombers-in approach which annihilates the first base in under 20 seconds of arriving with a high possibility of further base kills.

[Aether_0001]

Sorry, I thought it cost 3k metal.

What I meant with it being stoppable is that it can be killed extremely easily.

And given what Niobium said, also consider:

EMP nuke has much more range and is much more strategically viable. It can take up to three (at least, i think) antinukes before nuke strike, which is often enough to level half a late-game base in FFA provided you don't have to kill a mobile antinuke (with a spy kbot, probably)

Also, referring to BaNa's image, imagine where you can place a tactical nuke to have any power over the opponent in front of you. According to Niobium's data, the tactical nuke will have extremely little power to kill defense, or weaken it, for a t3 structure - planting an ambusher/toaster popup would be much more damaging than the tactical. So tell me, how can you get into the econ like Niobium suggests?

You can't get ANYTHING in the backside where the eco whores are. Frontline bases rarely have much eco, and to get the second-from-top-in-frontline base you'd need to set up on the hill, which is also more difficult because you'd have to get nanos or freakers and such, and also probably a bit of defense (as soon as your boy fires, every player on the map is going to try to kill it, and bombers are pretty hard to stop from killing such a forward position). To be able to hit a rear base, you'd have to set in one of the positions on BaNa's picture - which means you probably already won the game by then.

It's just not as practical, or as viable as any other tactics.

[ginekolog]

Its only usefull on 16 player FFA on throne. Target eco or nanofarms.

But its better that way, what is the fun getting killed by some tacnukes?

[Pxtl]

imho, the Tacnuke sucks because it's *supposed* to. In BA, many units suck because the game wouldn't be as fun if they were used frequently. The bigger problem is that the EMP weapon's range makes it the perfect antinuke-killer. Perhaps the static antinuke should get a resistence to EMP-weapons? Just a thought.

The more amusing anti-nanofarm weapon is Juno-spam.

[Aether_0001]

Even on throne, you'd pretty much have to have your tacnuke in front of your boundary defense in order to reach nanos/mohomm's.

[Aether_0001]

Well, I just wish they were better for killing antis. :/
EDIT: Srry for doublepost

[albator]

Even if tactical nuke cost a lot, they are really effective on maps like throne or DSDI. Bluffing them in cost or efficiency will make those maps situation totally unba.

Now, the fact that emp launcher have the same range than berta is another issue. I would decrease emp launcher range rather than bluffing tactical nuke

Only other solution I see is to make tac nuke them become mobile unit, with less range and more expensive.

I think it is an issue that should be re-discuss if some day mobile shield came out (to be able to use t2 unit more than 10 minutes) or when metal maker effciency will be reduced (to be able to use t2 unit more than 10 minutes too). Right now there is really nothing we can change do about.

[Sucky_Lord]

Ok me and aether used some tac nukes today in different games. They're pathetic. They dont even kill a t1 kbot lab in 1 hit, and it takes 6 for a com?! Its stupid, you can claim they're OP all you like but there's a fantastic reason as to why nobody uses them.

[albator]

Ok me and aether used some tac nukes today in different games. They're pathetic. They dont even kill a t1 kbot lab in 1 hit, and it takes 6 for a com?! Its stupid, you can claim they're OP all you like but there's a fantastic reason as to why nobody uses them.

check this replay:

http://replays.adune.nl/?2359

Or just any throne ffa replays I uploaded...

[albator]

Im pretty sure the tactical nukes are stopped like normal nukes by an anti.

ok, I should not have answer this post...

[Johannes]

It's funny how aether and suck start off with these ridiculous wrong infos, like tac nuke is stopped by anti, costs 3k m... But when proven wrong on facts their arguments still stay 100% same :D

[Aether_0001]

(double post due to internet lag)

[Aether_0001]

It's funny how aether and suck start off with these ridiculous wrong infos, like tac nuke is stopped by anti, costs 3k m... But when proven wrong on facts their arguments still stay 100% same :D

Not relevant. Tacnuke is still a ton worse than EMP missiles - Anything that you can do on throne with a tactical nuke, you can do 100 times better by shooting an emp nuke at their antis and nuking the fuck out of them.
My impression of tacnuke after toying with it for a while is you just have to walk an advcon with a jammer and 5 freaker up to the base of a steep DSD-like hill under enemy base and fire 1 shot and self d it.
Even so, it's not quite worth 750 m + 550 m = 1.3k m for half-killing an HLT, t1 kbot lab, or moho metal maker. MAYBE it's worth it on a nano field but it depends how big the field is and how smartly-planned enemy base is.
Compare this to a liche which costs 2.1k metal and can kill a fusion, ANY lab, an anti, annihilator, pretty much any t2 building with 1 shot.

Don't say tactical nuke is not counterable, while liche is. So easy to see when scouting, so easy to see where it came from, 3200 hp (that's 3 pyros). Also, when it dies it explodes as a nuclear explosion, which means pretty much everything around it dies - so build it near your frontline, you better not let it die. SO your option is to build it way out front, which means it's gonna die easily, and likely before you get your first shot out, or behind your frontline, where it's not going to hit anything.

[BaNa]

Code: Select all

Weapon 1	CORTRON_WEAPON	33.33	232.49	7.33	2500
Explode As:	ATOMIC_BLAST	666.67	0	0	2400
Self-D As:	NUCLEAR_MISSILE	79.17	1041.67	8.33	9500

only selfd is nuke. Use modinfo.

also:



As you can see here, there is no need to build at front, you can build this anywhere you want on throne and reach a few bases with it.

It costs 1/10th as much as cornuk, its missile costs 1/3rd as much as cornuk missile. For the cost of one nuke silo + missile, you can make 6 tacnukes with each containing one missile (you even have metal spare for one extra missile). On first strike that is 15000 damage to a given building, more than enough to take out an adv. fusion. I stress that they cannot be defended against with antis.

Yes, enemy can bomb them, and smart enemy will make tacnuke number one priority. That only shows its strength, noone likes being in range of one.