games with less players vs games with a lot of players - Page 2

games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Please use this forum to set up matches and discuss played games.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
JohannesH
Posts: 1793
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by JohannesH »

CarRepairer wrote:The reason 1v1/2v2 are often boring is because once the tide turns, the game is over. When the first mistake is made, the game is determined, which is far too soon. Only a duel of two really good pros can be interesting to watch and hard to predict because they are good at recovering.
Hmm I dont think so, if youve got rougly equal players 1 mistake shouldnt cost you the game no matter what skill level they are.
Unless its a really big mistake naturally, but decent players should know how to not blow a huge lead...

Maybe you just tend to use too risky builds, so your games turn out like as you described?
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Neddie »

I favour matches from 2v2 to 4v4 in size, though I seldom play the various mods which constitute the majority of server activity.

Matches differ in the mix of skills they require to play effectively just as they differ in size. In one on one games, the social dynamic is limited to gauging and countering the actions of your opponent. Many of the players who are drawn to one on one prefer this limited social component, indeed you'll see that some attempt to minimize even this in favour of concentrating on input factors like manual dexterity or personal skills such as contingency planning. However, skilled one on one players often invest heavily in the social-intellectual competition and even forge friendships through it.

As games scale up, the effective social requirement grows with the number of opposing forces and the number of allies - gauging and countering effectively becomes more difficult because there are more variables, and cooperation as a collection of social skills enters the picture. Effective cooperation is not easy, it requires you gauge your allies actions and personal skills like you would do for an opponent, then ascertain what you or your ally must/should do, and then communicate this clearly in a way which can be quickly and accurately processed. Input factors and personal skills remain, for the most part, what they were in one on one - however, problems often arise when a player allows his or her focus to narrow to the section of the territory which their units populate, and trust their allies blindly. This is a mistake that players of various grades and preferences make often; we should all remember that no matter how many people are participating, you as an individual must pay attention to the entire field of play in order to do your part effectively.

I'm sure some people are beginning to seethe here, since by this metric the most skill intensive matches in an ideal situation are the largest matches which can be played, both in terms of players per team and in number of team participating. Let me clarify; we are nowhere near this ideal situation. :wink: Remember that the selection of players in the community is limited. Skill variance may not be as wide as in more popular titles, but there are fewer people and thus the jump from player #313 to player #29 will be comparatively more severe. With fewer people and steeper jumps in ability (Input, Personal, Social) from individual to individual it becomes difficult to create a good, balanced match, and this difficulty increases with the number of participants you desire. One on one matches in Spring are, with few exceptions, categorically superior to eight on eight because the balance between the participants is much tighter and because there are fewer factors frustrating play. Fewer players, a purely competitive social dynamic... and nobody forgets that the whole map is their responsibility.

Why, then, do I prefer games from two on two to four on four in size? Well, I play 1944 for the most part. We have a tighter if smaller community, and while we have great variance in ability, we know where - generally speaking - most people are in relation to one another. We can manually balance and thus can create small team games which are usually good and balanced. I can bring my cooperative social skills to bear as a benefit, and we can have more people involved at once. I play one on one in 1944 if I think that the match will be good and balanced within reason - that is to say, if I can feasibly win at least one in three games and my opponent is in a similar position. I used to do similar in BA when there were more active players around my skill level, and if I had the time I would probably take a similar stance in CA.
User avatar
Gota
Posts: 7151
Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Gota »

Load of croc.
A player has a maximum amount of attention he can give to the game.
in team games that attention must also be divided between communicating one with the other which will always be slower to influence the game than playing by yourself.
So instead of you giving full focus to playing better,applying better strategy and tactics it becomes about being an expert at using the chat and console or more efficiently communicating through mumble...
IN short,it becomes more about the peripherals and not about outsmarting your opponent.

Being just an efficient team becomes more important than micro or macro.
User avatar
Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Pxtl »

Agreed. I also think that CA, with its beefy/cheap LLTs, further encourages smaller games since there's even less chance of an early-game stomping, but that's where you start getting mod-vs-mod flamewars.
User avatar
JohannesH
Posts: 1793
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by JohannesH »

Gota wrote:Being just an efficient team becomes more important than micro or macro.
Though that only applies once you have a decent understanding of the game. At very low level teamwork doesnt matter at all compared to just knowing the basics of unit control and making units.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Neddie »

Well, I find that there are different resources I can bring to bear to handle the cooperative social aspect - while I agree that there is some trade off I don't think it is necessary to diminish your personal actions significantly to sustain a working social relationship with your allies. If that were true, then those players who entirely ignore their allies and act as mavericks would play better games - they often do not. Being an efficient contributor to a team is just another employing another collection of skills along side. Of course having more skills involved in play would result in a division of resources, but I don't see - through my experience - that having to communicate necessarily overshadows either reading/out-thinking an opponent or manual/personal micro/macro.

Anyway, while we disagree on this point, the result is the same.
User avatar
Gota
Posts: 7151
Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Gota »

neddiedrow wrote:Well, I find that there are different resources I can bring to bear to handle the cooperative social aspect - while I agree that there is some trade off I don't think it is necessary to diminish your personal actions significantly to sustain a working social relationship with your allies. If that were true, then those players who entirely ignore their allies and act as mavericks would play better games - they often do not. Being an efficient contributor to a team is just another employing another collection of skills along side. Of course having more skills involved in play would result in a division of resources, but I don't see - through my experience - that having to communicate necessarily overshadows either reading/out-thinking an opponent or manual/personal micro/macro.

Anyway, while we disagree on this point, the result is the same.
No,My argument does not imply that team games require more skill(skill being understanding of the game coupled with micro scouting etc...)
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Neddie »

My post states that more social skills come to bear and that the scope and thus difficulty of effective employment of these social skills grows with the addition of more people. This isn't really something which can be disagreed with, unless you believe that either social skills do not exist or are irrelevant to playing a match.

What you're referring to I classified as personal skills and input factors, which stay the same for the individual no matter what size game he or she is playing. My point in going into how things scale up is to explain that the larger the game, the harder it is to have a good game because the array and scope of social skills necessary grows. This also means, consequentially, that if you are having a good team game you are meeting a greater baseline challenge on the whole entirely because of the social elaboration.

So what if I imply that a good four player game is more challenging than a good two player game? It is! You should be focusing on what I said later, which goes into the fact that most of the time, it is impossible to get a good large game, and thus that potential is never met. One on one matches end up better not because they're one on one but because you can manage the players participating better and balance them better. If you have six "one on one" players with similar social skills and similar personal skills/input factors well balanced who all play to the limit of their abilities the game will be more complex and challenging than if you just have two of them play... whether it is a six person free for all, a three on three or a two on two on two! Why else would clans made of up skilled players play team games at all?
User avatar
Gota
Posts: 7151
Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Gota »

Whatever,I aint gonna read more wall on this subject.If its so important to you than you win.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Neddie »

Just read the bolded bit and think about it for a second. I care not a jot about winning, I'm trying to explain.
User avatar
JohannesH
Posts: 1793
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by JohannesH »

neddiedrow wrote:personal skills and input factors
Whats input factors? Apparantly something that makes you a better player without being skill? Do you mean widgets and good mouse or what...

And no, more players doesnt make for more complex game thats ridiculous. It just changes the skill set needed a bit, and the starting position allows for more varied openings, but at the same time you need to multitask much much less.
Even if I played with the same teammate a 1000 2v2s, at which point we should be able to cooperate pretty well, it wouldnt be more complex or challenging game. Just a game with a different starting scenario and different mechanics (attention can be at 2 points, but also you have to make sure youre both on the same page).

Also more complex doesnt always mean its better, why else would anyone play CA for example.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Neddie »

Input factors would be latency, mouse clicks/minute, some lua, etcetera. Elements which have nothing to do with your mind but rather the time between decision/action and the execution of it in the simulation.

Why is it ridiculous? More players means more factors means more variables means more complexity from a mathematical standpoint.

I do see where you're coming from, though, Johannes. That could and probably is the outcome in many situations.

However, I'm just not certain there has to be less multitasking, or that the non-social skill requirement declines at all in many situations. Bear with me for a moment - I mean, you often play a larger game on a larger map. If I go from a map with eighteen metal spots of X by X in one on one to a map with thirty six metal spots of 2X by 2X in two on two, and correct for terrain differences, could I not be said to be playing with the same immediate resource concerns and even greater absolute concerns - not including the social aspect, I already have more ground to cover, more points of interest to my economic expansion, and more absolute space for maneuvering? Just because I have an ally doesn't mean I don't have to/can't do all I did and more in the smaller map, assuming we correct for resources as I did by playing on a map four times as large with twice the metal spots, right? I suppose I should have made the map twice the area, but that may not be an option if I want to maintain the aspect ratio given the map units.
User avatar
JohannesH
Posts: 1793
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by JohannesH »

If you count out the technical things widgets, equipment and connection - good execution of anything is mostly about your mind.
User avatar
Neddie
Community Lead
Posts: 9406
Joined: 10 Apr 2006, 05:05

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Neddie »

JohannesH wrote:If you count out the technical things widgets, equipment and connection - good execution of anything is mostly about your mind.
Yes, though I also counted physical limitations since muscle memory and, say, joint pain both might have some serious impact.
User avatar
SirArtturi
Posts: 1164
Joined: 23 Jan 2008, 18:29

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by SirArtturi »

I agree with CarRepair. It is really simple: teamgames are more balanced(It's like counterbalancing, yin&yang. 1v1 games are challenging but thats about all unless the opponents are not equally challenged. You need to have really equal opponents to get it work in a way that it becomes interesting. That's why i myself prefer teamgames. although I enjoy 1v1, It is not a matter of being afraid of challenge but rather becoming frustrated/bored of constantly losing or winning, in long terms, if the duel is not balanced.

I'd say that the limit however reaches only as far as 8 players, because after that games usually break and separate too much or the so called 'meatshield' effect comes in part. Dsd 16 players is just silly meatshield porcing where back guys can actually play the game while their little minions at front initializes the game for them by dying. I dont want to play games for anyone, Is it clear?!
JohannesH wrote: Hmm I dont think so, if youve got rougly equal players 1 mistake shouldnt cost you the game no matter what skill level they are.
Unless its a really big mistake naturally, but decent players should know how to not blow a huge lead...

Maybe you just tend to use too risky builds, so your games turn out like as you described?
But how would unequal players make it any better? If the game is decided after one mistake - if the mistake is a loosing couple flashes more than other - then you can really blame the game you are playing...
User avatar
JohannesH
Posts: 1793
Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 12:43

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by JohannesH »

SirArtturi wrote:
JohannesH wrote: Hmm I dont think so, if youve got rougly equal players 1 mistake shouldnt cost you the game no matter what skill level they are.
Unless its a really big mistake naturally, but decent players should know how to not blow a huge lead...

Maybe you just tend to use too risky builds, so your games turn out like as you described?
But how would unequal players make it any better? If the game is decided after one mistake - if the mistake is a loosing couple flashes more than other - then you can really blame the game you are playing...
I never meant that itd be any better with unequal players. Though the game wont hang on 1 mistake then either, the worse player is just likely to consistently screw up more things over the course of the game.

And I dont think theres anything wrong with big mistake loosing you the game, if your opponent keeps playing solidly? Im not sure what youre meaning, what should decide the game then...
User avatar
triton
Lobby Moderator
Posts: 330
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 14:27

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by triton »

Hm, and what about ffa? :)
luckywaldo7
Posts: 1398
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by luckywaldo7 »

Best games are the ones you play with people you enjoy playing with. 8)
User avatar
Sucky_Lord
Posts: 531
Joined: 22 Aug 2008, 16:29

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Sucky_Lord »

luckywaldo7 wrote:Best games are the ones you play with people you enjoy playing with. 8)
This thread has just exceeded the max thread friendliness quota.

All subsequent replies should consist of flamebaet/ripoast, devolving into flamewoar and lok.
User avatar
Carpenter
Posts: 216
Joined: 10 Jul 2009, 16:07

Re: games with less players vs games with a lot of players

Post by Carpenter »

Best games only happen when I'm around... For myself because the rest in the same game will get poooond pretty badly ! :D
Post Reply

Return to “Ingame Community”