Republican health care plan, step 1: don't get sick

[AF]

Perhaps he likes flowers?

[Das Bruce]

That is not in question.

[Caydr]

Regarding the previous, "NOTHING is free" from FA. Who do you think foots the bill for the ~1,000,000 Americans who go declare bankruptcy every year due to health care bills?

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/03 ... e-rachlis3

[Forboding Angel]

Nothing is free. Even in bankruptcy, you have to live, and by supporting yourself even to the smallest extent, you are still paying taxes.

Nothing is free, that's simply a fact of life.

[Panda]

I feel sorry for poor people in America, especially if they have medical bills and a family. I've tutored very young and high school students before who were really poor and had to work to help support their families. It's a very bad situation to be in. The poor kids that I was tutoring weren't doing poorly in school because they weren't trying or were somehow stupid. They were doing poorly because they were tired, worried, and having difficulty concentrating and staying awake because of it and they couldn't just quit their overly demanding jobs because they wouldn't be able to provide for themselves or help their family if they did. It is also very difficult for someone to save any money in that situation especially a very young person making minimum wage pay. Even though some people still manage to do it either because they're lucky, have some sort of talent, or both, upward mobility is very difficult to achieve when you have little to nothing at all to begin with and your money is used up as soon as make it.

[Gota]

Cant there be a floor for medical insurance?
If you make under a certain average or a certain minimum you start paying less and less for health care.
School and education is a different matter IMO.
I don't think Educations should be privatized that includes high education as well.
Education is the best way to achieve a high upward mobility hence it should be equal for all and being a teacher should be a very respected and well payed job.

Also economies who live of exploiting immigration will IMO contribute to a wider class gap.

[Caydr]

They should have a vote: if you vote YES to healthcare, you are eligible to be covered. If you vote NO to healthcare, you don't have to pay for it.

Lots of NOs will die or be marginalized, and people who aren't a walking, breathing caricature of what's wrong with America will live longer. Two birds with one stone.

[Argh]

The bigger issue, as discussed in the Wall Street Journal recently, is how many Democrats are getting their states 'opted out' of the true costs of the Baucus bill.

Using various methods, such as outright subsidies, lower fees and requirements, etc., etc., various legistlators are effectively creating a giant transfer of wealth from Republican states (not, btw, the richest in the Union on average) to Democratic states. Especially charming is what Massachusetts has asked for- they already have the most regulated insurance market in the U.S.A., and are basically demanding a lot of special treatment, so that they can continue to hide the real costs from their constituents.

I suspect, when this issue is understood more widely, that it will cause an uproar over here.

It's one thing, to want to pass a bill that, even if you disagree with some of its mandates, means well, and is totally fair.

However, when it's basically taking extra money from Julie and John, who happen to live in a state that votes for Republicans, to give to Jenny and James, who live in a state that votes for Democrats, regardless of any other factor, such as income... that is going to cause more howling than any previous part, I suspect, other than the penalty provisions (and outright fibbing on the part of Obama, whose statement, "this is not a tax" is in disagreement with the text of the bill itself- it's a tax, and like all taxes, is backed up by force).

In short, the minute that sort of game started getting played, I for one, while open-minded at the outset, can no longer support this bill. If we play Peter-robs-Paul on that scale, it makes the massively wastrel behavior of the Bridge to Nowhere Republicans look like nothing, and will be incredibly divisive.

Obama should, in my opinion, make good on his bipartisan promises, by publicly chastising this wheeling and dealing and stating that he'll use the veto pen if that is where the bill is heading. If it wasn't for the impeccable liberal credentials of the people who put those provisions into the bill, I'd have said it was sabotage, because passing it with those kinds of things in it gives Republicans a really big stick to use in the next congressional elections.

Obama should save his party from itself, basically, and act Presidential, which is what everybody who voted for him without massive stars in their eyes expects. Otherwise he may lose his mandate over here, and become another Jimmy Carter- well-liked overseas and a generally genial figurehead, but generally toothless and ineffective as a leader on the American political scene. This seems a waste of such an obviously great potential to me.

[Caydr]

Nothing is free. Even in bankruptcy, you have to live, and by supporting yourself even to the smallest extent, you are still paying taxes.

Nothing is free, that's simply a fact of life.

No no no, you're missing my point: those debts don't just vanish, someone has to eat that cost. That someone is whoever gave the credit, which results in higher interest rates and fees, which will directly or indirectly affect you. A million bankruptcies every year just due to medical costs. And those won't be little things like "oh I can't pay my student loan, I'll go bankrupt." These are medical expenses. Hugeass colossal fees times a million, every year.

edit:
Excellent article:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/20 ... index.html
Short version, health insurance companies just smelled blood and jumped on it like the hyenas they are, making the need for a public option so blatantly obvious that even the "pro-death" people can't argue.

[Caydr]

Best health care system in the world
http://current.com/groups/vanguard-the- ... n-express/

[Forboding Angel]

One thing I never see mentioned. You guys realize that there is medicaid right? I never see it mentioned, but it covers everything and is essentially the poor person's equivalent of medicare. It's ridiculously easy to qualify for too.

How come the media and everyone else never takes it into account? Is it because it's a state run thing? Even so, every state has it...

[Caydr]

I dunno anything about that, I've really just been repeating what all the cool kids on TV are saying

Apparently you all wish you didn't have to live every day with the shame of not being Canadian?

[tombom]

Medicaid is not accessible to everyone who wants it and doesn't actually cover everything. One of the biggest problems with medical costs is that they actually hit the middle class the worst, because they can't apply for stuff like Medicaid and the medical costs for major illnesses like cancer, even with supposedly alright health insurance, can easily turn people who've worked hard all their lives bankrupt.

Also single payer owns http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_ ... php?page=3

[1v0ry_k1ng]

good news, forb

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8430363.stm

welcome under the wide and greasy wing of a tax-funded national health service

[Forboding Angel]

Yay socialism and obama, the one man country wreaking crew.

Well it actually is good news. Deomcrats are going to lose big in 2010 and 2012, so you can say that I am somewhat happy.

[Caydr]

I'm very saddened and disappointed by what the senate's version of the bill has turned into. Forboding, as someone living under conditions I believe to be similar to the house's version of the bill, I can only say that while I disagree with your viewpoint, I am confident you would come around to seeing things my way within a few years if you had the opportunity to actually experience the reality of a revised health care system.

To me, it's like this: police protect everyone equally, or are supposed to. But this isn't called "socialism", it's for the common good. Public schools educate everyone equally, giving people the opportunity to expand their potential. Again, never referred to as "socialism". Fire departments. Water safety, drug safety, safety from invading nations and terrorism, radio frequency regulation, these things allow everyone to live with peace of mind. Why should services to merely keep you breathing be exempted from this basic reasonableness?

Health care costs and profits are skyrocketing and have more than doubled in the last 20 years and are expected to double again in the next 10 years.

Perhaps you have health insurance now through your job or through a private plan, but not everyone has this luxury. And if you don't, I am in awe of your ability to live without constant morbid dread of getting sick. If I got really sick with a flu or something, I wouldn't want to have to actually weigh my life on one hand with the possibility of financially devastating treatment on the other.

The arguments on both sides are full of nonsense and rhetoric, but the people "on the right" I find to be simply shameful in their spreading of disinformation and blatantly obvious lying. Politicians lie, but usually they show a little respect and try not to make it so obvious.

But these guys... "the bill is going to kill your parents and your children!" "Have you read any part of the bill?" "Well, no..."

And the pandering to Jesusland is just abhorrent. I have religious beliefs myself, I would even call many of my views traditional or fundamentalist. But the stuff they spew is just... just shameful. There aren't a lot of things that fill me with disappointment this way, as when I see and hear this drivel, knowing that there will actually be people who believe what they're hearing. "Pray that so-and-so won't be able to make it to the next vote, good citizens of America!"

Comedians and commentators like to take things politicians say out of context, but after hearing some of their speeches, I can't imagine a context where they wouldn't sound like fearmongering and shameful attempts to prey on peoples' most basic fears. Some of these people should be allowed to wield any form or degree of power.

What troubles me more is that when people like Lieberman express an independent viewpoint, they are persecuted for it. Yes, I think he did an idiotic, selfish thing in pulling a complete 180 when it suited him, derailing the senate bill completely, but at the same time... he's an independent and it shouldn't be such a shock for people to express the viewpoint they've been elected to express. Unlike the D's and R's, he doesn't have a party boss with their hands clenched firmly around his balls, so he should be able to freely do as he feels best.

I fear now that you are going to be a casualty in the power games of politicians on both sides, and of course their financial backers. I am almost tempted to say that the bill should be scapped altogether and pursued at some time in the future when there are people leading your country who are as concerned with the needs of their constituents as they are their own selfish desires. Reasonable, level-headed people, in a society where they are actually held to account for the validity of the things they say. Perhaps in another 20 years, when this generation's children will have grown up being media-literate. Preferably at some time when Glenn Beck is long-dead from a crack overdose and Rupert Murdoch's successor has just announced that they will no longer tolerate gross inaccuracies in reporting - for real this time.

It's strange, but at a time when 60% of the senate is filled with people that aren't automatically obligated to always vote the same way, things have actually gotten worse.

[Forboding Angel]

To me, it's like this: police protect everyone equally, or are supposed to. But this isn't called "socialism", it's for the common good. Public schools educate everyone equally, giving people the opportunity to expand their potential. Again, never referred to as "socialism". Fire departments. Water safety, drug safety, safety from invading nations and terrorism, radio frequency regulation, these things allow everyone to live with peace of mind. Why should services to merely keep you breathing be exempted from this basic reasonableness?

City services (that are paid for via city taxes, or direct billing) are specific to that city and should stay that way. Do you really think that the federal government should regulate all city services as if they were a single entity? I shudder at the thought.

Perhaps you have health insurance now through your job or through a private plan, but not everyone has this luxury. And if you don't, I am in awe of your ability to live without constant morbid dread of getting sick. If I got really sick with a flu or something, I wouldn't want to have to actually weigh my life on one hand with the possibility of financially devastating treatment on the other.

Don't have it, don't need it, don't particularly care for the thought of paying for it either (but on the other hand I'm not some lazy asshole that thinks my neighbors should pay for it either).

But these guys... "the bill is going to kill your parents and your children!" "Have you read any part of the bill?" "Well, no..."

Why are you relying on comedians to interpret context for you? A lot of what Rush Limbaugh says is in satire, but liberal idiots routinely mistake it for an actual opinion (I never listen to Glenn Beck... I don't find his show particularly entertaining, whereas Rush is actually quite funny, entertaining, and informative). And btw, and "End of Life Counsel or counselor" happens to be a "Death Panel, or Counsel, or counselor" simply put in nicer terms, the function is the same. That function is to assess if it is in your best interest to receive treatment that you need to stay alive based upon your age and/or condition (You do not get to decide that for yourself). How is that NOT a "Death Panel" again?

What troubles me more is that when people like Lieberman express an independent viewpoint, they are persecuted for it. Yes, I think he did an idiotic, selfish thing in pulling a complete 180 when it suited him, derailing the senate bill completely, but at the same time... he's an independent and it shouldn't be such a shock for people to express the viewpoint they've been elected to express. Unlike the D's and R's, he doesn't have a party boss with their hands clenched firmly around his balls, so he should be able to freely do as he feels best.

No real opinion. Personally I think Lieberman is a pretty decent guy. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but he has spine and isn't afraid to show it. That, I respect.

Public schools educate everyone equally, giving people the opportunity to expand their potential.

What world do you live in? Seriously? Because it isn't God's green earth. There isn't anything that is equal in public schooling across the country and government educations is lolzy.

It's strange, but at a time when 60% of the senate is filled with people that aren't automatically obligated to always vote the same way, things have actually gotten worse.

Lol! Democrats always vote the party line. Many Repubs do too which isn't surprising, but repubs generally do mainline voting much less. You got your liberals in the senate and the house, now enjoy the chaotic retardedness (No seriously, Pelosi and Reid I'm sure are legally retarded. Paris Hilton actually managed to make them look like idiots... That should tell you something.).

Regardless, it's a mostly done deal now. Next year is going to be very entertaining.

[SwiftSpear]

Republican health care plan: Open up the market so that private insurance can insure anyone from any part of the country. Put a stop to frivolous malpractice suits. Have a choice of shopping around for health insurance and comparing quotes and rates (as you can do right now with car insurance).

The vast majority of americans don't care for socialism. Why can't you worry about your own country and stop trying to shove something that you like down our throats?

At this level capitalism is evil. If capitalism isn't about allowing people to choose to die, or allowing health insurance companies to refuse coverage for life saving procedures based on technicalities.

[FLOZi]

The vast majority of americans don't care for socialism.

The vast majority of americans don't UNDERSTAND the PREMISE of socialism. Hence all the 'OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST!' rhetoric actually taken as gospel.

[SwiftSpear]

Coincidence? Look at these, soem fo which even use US states

*lots of images*

I really really wonder if they aren't cherry picking there. You've got some graphs like "income equality vs social mobility" conveniently missing countries like china and india, where social mobility is virtually non existent yet income equality isn't all that massive. Some of the graphs are pretty tenuous too. Like what the hell is singapore doing right to reduce infant deaths? Why are Italians so mentally stable? Why do Japanese and Americans trust people virtually the same amount although their income equality is so distant? Why is Japan consistently so awesome at social and wellbeing related things?

The data points are very scattered to argue a true linear relation.