1 faction discussion thread

[KingRaptor]

I think we should all play 1faction before passing judgment on it.

[Google_Frog]

So how many land-labs will there be in your 1fac? You're going with Arm veh, Core bots... and how many other labs? Are you looking for new "special things" to put into those other labs? Will these other labs still have distinct slope-tolerances, or will you be removing the lab=slope approach since lab=faction in 1fac?

The current lab roles will look like this:

Hovercraft, fastest factory which can also travel on water. Hovering and speed are mobility advantages so this will make them easier to make land viable. A few hovercraft may get sprint, maybe all of them. Probably same slope tolerance as vehicles.

Vehicles, the aim for this factory is to be less mobile than hovers and a bit beefier. Core vehicles will be used as they're all remodelled and Janus may be added, we might also need AA. Something will have to be done to make this factory less OP and more interesting.

Tank, Porcbusting with arty/assault. A mix of core and arm vehicles with 4(maybe too many) artillery units, although before lugur/diplomat removal each had 3. It also has quite a few interesting units. It is not expected that this will be 1v1 start viable as the units cost too much.

Bots, the focus on this factory is affordability with good dps but poor HP. Arm bots will be used and Zeus has been added for assault.

Amphib/Stealth bots, the factory will have cloaking units and all units will be amphib. It's currently using core bots as well as sniper, spy and sumo. Some/all of the units will be stealthed and we're going to try and add a Gremlin replacement.

All Terrain, the all terrain factory with all units having some way to bypass terrain. It will be a mix of jumpers and spiders with a few extra units to make up some missing roles.

Mech, very big walkers which are mostly used in FFA. Most of the units from both sides can be used here.

Gunships, very mobile factory. Both sides have a bit of an empty gunship buildlist so they will be added together. Rapier will be improved vs air so that this factory has some flex AA reducing the hardcounter of planes > gunships. Only unit that doesn't look like it will be used is Brawler as it is boring compared to Blackdawn.

Planes, air support. The same as both current factories, may as well use mine bomber, emp bomber and liche.

Sea, for using on sea maps. I have not clue. Saktoth (hopefully) knows what he is going to do with sea.

As for the unique building, remember you've also got the stuff for defenses too - each lab having its own stun/repulse/whatever turret would be nice too. In the extreme case, you could divvy up the heavier defenses, but that would be hard to balance (1 lab gets HLT, 1 lab gets antiswarm, 1 lab gets pop-up, etc.)

I don't think there's any plan for splitting up the buildings. I don't think it's a good idea.

[SirMaverick]

I think we should all play 1faction before passing judgment on it.

+1

[Pxtl]

@Google - I think a front-facing shield on the Brawler would be a fun thing to keep it relevant. Give it a toggle to make the "rotate/strafe" behavior optional. Suddenly the Brawler becomes an assault-gunship with a special weakness and strength.

I mostly suggest it because I think the Brawler is a really fun-looking ship and it's a shame to ditch that nice model.

[Saktoth]

@Google - I think a front-facing shield on the Brawler would be a fun thing to keep it relevant. Give it a toggle to make the "rotate/strafe" behavior optional. Suddenly the Brawler becomes an assault-gunship with a special weakness and strength.

I mostly suggest it because I think the Brawler is a really fun-looking ship and it's a shame to ditch that nice model.

It is quite difficult to control the facing of a gunship properly, especially if you still want it to fire.

I think we should look at more basic characteristics: Reload time, speed, weapon type, etc. Gunships use only a fraction of the possibilities here, they dont need unique abilities.

[knorke]

actually, why does there have to be the difference between fixed wing and gunships? why does there have to be every movement class spring supports?
like sea.
not all RTS actually have sea combat, most have just some amphi units or something.
Also how will eco look like?
If there is going to be all this walker factory, tank lab, fixed wing/gunship bla and I start with wind wind mex mex lab, it will just be *a again.

[Pxtl]

@knorke - facplop means you put the lab first and get it to start working.

So it's lab mex mex wind wind.

Seriously, though, it seems like there have got to be some other options for gunships - right now it seems like the main variance in CA-family games is speed, armor, and firepower... changing firing range or manoeverability doesn't seem to have tremendous gameplay effect.

Why not a long-ranged fire gunship? Remove the "strafe" behavior and give it a missile long enough to outrange a Packo.

Agree about 100% reclaim efficiency. That's always been something I didn't like about the *A family.

Either way, though, as long as you take the approach of "factory = movement class" you're going to have trouble balancing them. Trying to balance amphibs vs. kbots vs. vehicles vs. hovers will always be a mess. The only way I could even imagine it working is if you completely gut out the "normal" labs of vehicle and bot so that *all* the units are special. Otherwise, you'll always be facing problems with trying to make amphibs viable vs. normal units... but then make sure you don't have every single player picking amphibs on The Hunters.

[Neddie]

Guardian-style artillery gunship? Hurm...

[CarRepairer]

actually, why does there have to be the difference between fixed wing and gunships? why does there have to be every movement class spring supports?

I always saw it that "fixed wing" (I hate that term) air units mirror the battle on the ground like ticks and fleas. They are very difficult to hit because they move so fast that only tracking projectiles can get them. While gunships are slow moving and easy to hit but have more HP. It makes it interesting to have two classes of air units.

[knorke]

So it's lab mex mex wind wind.

yea but its still so similiar.
mex are small, cheap, easy to plop down easy to raid.
wind is fragile too. other buildings are tougher.
radar will be those funny small towers, like all *a do them.
How about making radars somewhat less spamable for a change, so its not just "build them whereever possible"?

because of the cheap/fragile mex games have that creep across the map style.
so its
expand expand expand expand expand expand expand.
I would like to see something where a mex/expansion is a more risky move, similiar to starcraft:
EXPAND.....EXPAND.....EXPAND

Maybe have somewhat expensive ressourcecenter thing that can build only mex.
Or introduce a new ressource that you can collect on geospots.

I always saw it that "fixed wing" (I hate that term) air units mirror the battle on the ground like ticks and fleas. They are very difficult to hit because they move so fast that only tracking projectiles can get them. While gunships are slow moving and easy to hit but have more HP. It makes it interesting to have two classes of air units.

I see "fixed wing" as throw away units (one bombing run - dead) and gunships as units that live a little longer.

so that *all* the units are special.

Imo do that.
I never really liked how *a mods have have so many units that are basically the same just as one is a walker and the other is a vehicle.
BUT THE VEHICLE COSTS 15% MORE AND HAS 10% MORE HP!
lol yeah.
What I mean is, if ie starcraft was a spring mod:
-there would be a slightly more expensive version of the terran siege tank that has an AA gun. But only a weak one.
-6 versions of protoss photon cannon, the current one is called "pop up"

If you can not tell from a dotwars video what mod is being played, thats not a good sign imo.

[Saktoth]

Something is being worked on re larger expansions but i think its possibly too dramatic.

Bombers refuel between runs. That means they survive a run often enough, as long as you're not trying to penetrate to his e.

Each factory is unique in CA... and moreso in 1faction

[Pxtl]

Guardian-style artillery gunship? Hurm...

'zacktly. It would have to be expensive compared to a Pillager since an air-unit is so much more versatile than land-artillery, but still... it's something other than another Brawler.

[knorke]

possibly too dramatic.

imo 1faction can not be dramatically different enough from *a gameplay.

Each factory is unique in CA... and moreso in 1faction

yes, every unit has its niche.
but this also means for every niche problem there is a unit.
that can be boring.

[Pxtl]

How different from *A must a game be before it satisfies you? Is EE different-enough? Kernel Panic? Gundam?

[knorke]

kernel panic is very different. feels more like netpanzer meets liquid wars.
gundam: havent played much, but has a different eco model & squads. animations of units somehow make it feel unique too.
EE: most similiar to *a gameplay.

Apart from the real obvious like m&e all *A share some things:
-commanders. sometimes weaker (ca), sometimes rpg style (xta)
in the start they always do the same stuff in all mods.
-easy to raid&replace mex
-vulnerable windfarms: "one unit gets in and all wind gets killed"
-progressing through the game you get more and more con units that are like a 3rd ressource. they are build in the same lab as attack units.
-lots of different units for each niche: not just a "heavy tank" but "riot tank", "raider tank", "anti swarm tank"
-large selection of turrets: how many rts do you know with more than 1 aa turret?
-super weapons. anti nukes.
-bots climb, vehicles have more hp.
-all factories can be used on their own. (in xta, only after some time with enough eco): in age of empires you would not win making only archeries even if you get different bowmen (yes, paladins olololol imba-lame imo)

As far I can see, 1faction will go pretty much in that direction.
Say you only played 1faction once at a lan party for the first time. Next year you play ba, ca or something.. Would you notice it is a different game? Or maybe think "oh, there has been a patch."

hm i cant sleep, can you tell?

[JohannesH]

because of the cheap/fragile mex games have that creep across the map style.
so its
expand expand expand expand expand expand expand.
I would like to see something where a mex/expansion is a more risky move, similiar to starcraft:
EXPAND.....EXPAND.....EXPAND

Not just mexes, its map dependant. You build peons constantly in SC too. Make a map with tight clusters of many small mex spots instead of scattered distribution.

[knorke]

You build peons constantly in SC too.

correct, but it does not grow your base area. It is more like making more con units.

But yes, most spring maps support this type of play. And it is helps that con units are so cheap, it is usually worth the risk to lose some while they drive across the map to make some mex.

[Saktoth]

None of the units will look similiar at all so i doubt anyone will mistake them.

CA has no tech levels, just a bunch of factories. It has no metal makers or advanced metal extractors, it simply overdrives metal extractors with e. This is a pretty big departure, though you're right, it borrows a lot from TA. This isnt the end of the world.

-all factories can be used on their own. (in xta, only after some time with enough eco): in age of empires you would not win making only archeries even if you get different bowmen (yes, paladins olololol imba-lame imo)

A factory in CA is like a faction in other RTS's, and has about as many units as the factions in Star Craft and some other RTS's. Still, try using only an air factory: Then try playing a larger team game without an air factory. Tech switching gives a noticable advantage.

Also, you're a noob. Paladins? What are you playing, post-imperial deathmatch? Hun feudal rush for GG. You only need one factory, and hell, you can win with no factories if you do a pure tower rush (though this is sub-optimum). Though also, of course, hun paladin rush in deathmatch, so, yeah, nice non-point you have there...

[1v0ry_k1ng]

[quote="knorke"]
yes, every unit has its niche.
but this also means for every niche problem there is a unit.
that can be boring.[/quote]

^ this

[knorke]

air is obv. a bit different.
also every each rts has some "cheesy" strategies to win without any real units.

What are you playing, post-imperial deathmatch?

not that extreme, but often similiar settings yeah :/
problem was, on our lans noone used to be good at rts (except for one guy who was really pro at aoe) i was decent because although i dont really play aoe i am/was generally somewhat good at rts.
so the noobs choice was to mass paladins because other noobs cant counter that.

But my point was, that in *A each factory alone gives you a set of units including constructors to sucessfully play a game, even without turretrush or similiar. even air.
The paladin comment was more of a joke really