1 faction discussion thread

[luckywaldo7]

yup not all options available...

When I'm core, I will not have flash available to me.
...OH NOES, WHAT WILL I DO!!...
Guess I will make gator instead.

Good thing there are two factions so there is all that in-depth strategy in unit choice.

[CarRepairer]

yup not all options available...

When I'm core, I will not have flash available to me.
...OH NOES, WHAT WILL I DO!!...
Guess I will make gator instead.

Good thing there are two factions so there is all that in-depth strategy in unit choice.

^ troll post.

To those who don't know about CA, Flash and Gator near the extreme end of faction similarities, whereas there are many many units that are very unique to their faction. The fact that only core has shields and only arm has cloaking fields, is an obvious example.

Misinformation is not appreciated

[Pxtl]

That being said, the vehicle lab really does need more differentiation. Some fire and stun and stealth grav and shields and fun stuff like that would be very nice.

[Google_Frog]

^ troll post.

To those who don't know about CA, Flash and Gator near the extreme end of faction similarities, whereas there are many many units that are very unique to their faction. The fact that only core has shields and only arm has cloaking fields, is an obvious example.

Misinformation is not appreciated

I think it's more of a sarcastic post, it's hard to tell sometimes though.

At least half the units are identical between sides without even counting buildings, some of the differences may just be that one is worse than the other. Anyway the greater point is that you're not limited by faction, you can techshare. Maybe you're limited in your mind with your perception of 2 separate factions.

[CarRepairer]

If half the units are different then the two factions are different. Two factions count as being the same only if all the units are (more or less) the same. They are definitely not.

Regarding tech share that's the only argument I accept for saying "we should have 1 faction" (aside from an OTA IP free fork for promotional purposes but that is only temporary in my mind). But only if it were widespread.

You can't tech share in 1v1, FFA or planetwars. You can steal tech and that doesn't happen until later in the game when your armies and strategies are already established. The game can certainly change mid-way, but until that happens you have a set of skills with your chosen faction and that's it.

And that's what people like about choosing a faction, just like choosing a character in any video game. This game I will be the aggressive character. Now this game I will be the sneaky one. I wish we had more. But we have 2 now and they are damn fun.

[luckywaldo7]

It was intended to be a sarcastic post but I forgot to set my anti-troll traps so some might have gotten in.

Although Car, by what you describe you like about multiple factions, we should consider just taking everything we have now and splitting it into many smaller factions. There could be:

a sneaky, stealthy faction
a slow, blunt, powerful faction
a faction based around raiding/speed
a general, all-rounder, beginner faction
a faction based on mobility (the jumpers, all-terrain)
yes this is setting up for 1faction -> factories=factions :p
and whatever else you could possibly think up. But right now the 2 factions are trying to be balanced and standardized while still maintaining gameplay differences, and ultimately is just failing at doing either. Better to have 1 faction or else have many factions with real differences.

[JohannesH]

Gator and flash extremely similar? Really?

[CarRepairer]

But right now the 2 factions are trying to be balanced and standardized while still maintaining gameplay differences, and ultimately is just failing at doing either.

Are they? People seem to enjoy the game a lot. I do.

Like I said, I wish we did have many factions. Starcraft has 3. WC3 has 4.

And no, a factory is not like a faction. You build several factories throughout the game. Factories of one faction have units that share certain abilities (like cloaking) and classes of weapons (like heat rays). A faction has a feel across its factories.

[Argh]

Suggestion: one faction, but from the start, you have to choose an "evolutionary path", that unlocks only certain factories.

You may not be given factories that aren't on your path by other players.

This gives you all of the diversity of multiple factions, none of the mess (other than balancing the paths, which is not all that important, as it really only becomes a big factor in huge teamgames that at least one of you take the "porc path", for example. In a one-vs-one, it is likely that there will be an "assault path" or "rush path" that is favored for serious play, and it can be balanced internally pretty easily).

This leaves lots of room for new art and Unit designs, while (in the immediate future) allowing the CA team to finally become IP-free and GPL-compliant. There simply isn't enough art available to achieve the goal in the immediate future otherwise.

IOW, short-term win, long-term win, and if the "paths" become diverse enough, then they can always be parsed back into distinct factions, if that's desirable.

I expect the usual howling, but frankly, the issues of IP, along with poor single-player support and de-cluttering the UI are the main things that need to get solved here. Sitting around talking about this forever just means that it won't get done, just like it hasn't been getting done for nearly 3 years now, imo.

[luckywaldo7]

The game isn't un-enjoyable. I think its very enjoyable.

But the initial reactions of most players is often something along the lines of "balance is backwards, because it tries to move away from ta while still remaining the same." This is a somewhat cryptic criticism, but it holds a lot of truth.

I mean, shields are limited to core now and arm has cloakers, and that is a really fun difference, but that is almost the only fun difference in the game. The other two general differences are emp vs fire/gravity, and at vs jumper. But after that there is a ton the factions share in parallel.

Gator and flash extremely similar? Really?

Really not much different than in BA. They share the same role: raiding. Flash, having more dps, are generally better raiders and anti-assault. Gators have better accuracy and a tad more range, so they can skirm a bit so are better for killing explosive stuff like commanders or nanos. In the end they aren't that much different, just a little unbalanced in ability.

So the end result sees two factions that are somewhat different and somewhat the same. But you don't have enough differences to make it really interesting, nor are they similar enough to be really balanced.

Edit: just saw argh posted something, haven't read it too closely yet but looks interesting

[Neddie]

It was intended to be a sarcastic post but I forgot to set my anti-troll traps so some might have gotten in.

Although Car, by what you describe you like about multiple factions, we should consider just taking everything we have now and splitting it into many smaller factions. There could be:

a sneaky, stealthy faction
a slow, blunt, powerful faction
a faction based around raiding/speed
a general, all-rounder, beginner faction
a faction based on mobility (the jumpers, all-terrain)
yes this is setting up for 1faction -> factories=factions :p
and whatever else you could possibly think up. But right now the 2 factions are trying to be balanced and standardized while still maintaining gameplay differences, and ultimately is just failing at doing either. Better to have 1 faction or else have many factions with real differences.

Already suggested this using E&E basis.

[Argh]

That's why I said, "paths".

The various "paths" can include a few things outside their theme- all of the paths should have 100% equivalent land scouts and raiders at Tech Level One, for example, and all factions should have identical economies, to keep the learning curve low. But stuff like Sea... should be a deliberate choice. If you're not playing on a map with significant water, you're not going to pick that path... if you picked a land-only path on a sea map, it's fair to say that you're stupid, and will learn the hard way.

Once players get past Tech Level One, their factories should become more and more divergent. An "air path" would have a Level One factory that can build land units, but past that, it should only build Air, including air cons that have a better build-power than others (which means, in a team game, not only do you want somebody on the Air path to have Air, but you also benefit from their cons).

And all paths should have some "anti" vs. all other types- a land path needs some AA, for example.

But the idea here is to give people factions to facilitate more interesting teamplay without requiring huge amounts of original IP to be built or not allowing for hardcore players to have a serious game 1v1 with well-balanced forces. If people want to make IP for a given Path later, to make it artistically diverse, that's fine of course, but the IP-free goal must be met asap.

[JohannesH]

Gator and flash extremely similar? Really?

Really not much different than in BA.

Yes, they are quite different in BA too. Factions play quite differently in BA, so why not in CA where theres arguably more variation?

[Argh]

Arguments for two factions are fine- if you want them to have half their current unit counts, and largely-incomplete sections. I mean... let's be real here. If we remove all of the OTA IP right now, we don't have anywhere enough art for ONE faction, let alone two.

Unless you're willing to commit the time and energy required to cross that bridge, which it's patently obvious that the artists working on this project are unwilling to do... that isn't a remotely realistic goal, imo. It's far more realistic to get one faction done... present the game to the public... and then, if artists show up, willing to get it all done for another faction, fine.

But getting to the IP goal must be the top priority here, or you're trapped in the current downward spiral. To get more players, CA needs to go outside the Spring box. To go outside that box, they need to advertise. To advertise, they need to be IP-free. It's a vicious circle that can only be broken by taking a more realistic approach.

[diggz2k]

I voted no, but if it was an 80% 20% share I think that would be good. Combining the units that perform the same function, but keep resurrection and stunning separated.

[Saktoth]

A faction has a feel across its factories.

This is the heart of Cars objection. He wants the factions to have a 'feel', a 'consistency' like special weapons or abilities. IE, another fluff argument.

Regarding tech share that's the only argument I accept for saying "we should have 1 faction". But only if it were widespread.

Almost every team game is mixed faction unless planetwars. Tech sharing is ubiquitous.

You can't start more than one factory in 1v1 or FFA. You can swap factory and that doesn't happen until later in the game when your armies and strategies are already established. The game can certainly change mid-way, but until that happens you have a set of skills with your chosen factory and that's it.

And that's what people like about choosing a factory, just like choosing a character in any video game. This game I will be the fast, aggressive character. Now this game I will be the sneaky, all terrain one. Now i will be the heavy porc-buster. Now i will be the versatile hill-climber. Now i will be the fast strike and harassment one. Now i will be the strategic support player. Now i will be the dedicated sea player. Now i will be the flexible land-and-sea player. I wish we had more. But we have 11 now and they are damn fun.

'How will i play today' is about factory choice, not faction choice.

The way you talk it sounds as if the best game would be one in which you pick your factory before the game starts and only get that factory for the whole game.

Faction choice is an illusion in everything except 1v1, and all the 1v1 players are pro 1faction. Dont you dare say 'But now we have a mod option where stolen tech degrades', the game was fine before this and it will be fine without it.

As for tech trees: Yes its been discussed. Also, the point isnt that these upgrade buildings can be raided, its that you must pay for them.

[Gota]

Heh.
Balance is fluff.
Not many care about it...
CA dev team should concentrate their efforts on a campaign,a co-op campaign,tutorials and graphical improvements having one or 2 factions...who cares...If you don't have a campaign and no story than does it matter if you have 1 or 2 factions?

CA for the last couple of years has been changing and shifting all the time...
It's like the never ending story...You make a gameplay,an economy system and than you end up throwing half of it away...
CA will never come close to being in shape if you just keep going like that,and chances are it will die soon if you don't decide on what you want to do and stop changing the mod/game drastically every few months.

[Google_Frog]

If half the units are different then the two factions are different. Two factions count as being the same only if all the units are (more or less) the same. They are definitely not.

They play quite similarly except for a few special abilities/OP things that must be techshared for.

Regarding tech share that's the only argument I accept for saying "we should have 1 faction" (aside from an OTA IP free fork for promotional purposes but that is only temporary in my mind). But only if it were widespread.

You can't tech share in 1v1, FFA or planetwars. You can steal tech and that doesn't happen until later in the game when your armies and strategies are already established. The game can certainly change mid-way, but until that happens you have a set of skills with your chosen faction and that's it.

Tech share is not the only argument for it. I just hate how you keep talking about a limited unit set, it's just wrong. Most games are teamgames, it's very easy to steal tech in FFA and you don't even play 1v1. 1v1 games use the identical units because the special abilities aren't balanced at a 1v1 level, the techshare games would exploit any meaningful 1v1 abilities that come into play before the game is decided.

And that's what people like about choosing a faction, just like choosing a character in any video game. This game I will be the aggressive character. Now this game I will be the sneaky one. I wish we had more. But we have 2 now and they are damn fun.

Again, there is much more difference between the factories than factions.

[Pxtl]

On the subject of going the other way - that is, as mentioned in the thread, going with more factions instead of fewer factions...

The problem with implementing a 3rd faction is that Arm and Core are just too big. The unit-list is too painfully long... plus, where would you get the new units?

I have a simple thought - just throwing this out there: why does Spring use the XTA convention of vehicles != kbots slope tolerance? TA didn't have this feature, and it was fine for it. Give everything except All-terrain units Kbot slope tolerance.

So, take it to the extreme: 5 factions. Arm vehicles, Arm kbots, Core vehicles, Core kbots, and Chickens. Each faction gets 2 labs and 1 air lab. Core vehicles and kbots don't even look related anyways. Axe the naval stuff altogether - air-as-navy worked fine in StarCraft. Any existing naval units and hovers worth saving could be reformatted as spaceships for an air lab. Leave the only water-specific stuff as unarmed amphibious units, sonar devices, and torpedo launchers. Gut out the Geotherm - just double the output of a Fusion or Fusion-like building if it's built on one.

Then start really screwing with the economies to make them more differentiated. A faction with no mobile cons - instead, each mobile unit can morph into a single building. Peewees become LLTs, and so on. A faction where units reproduce by mitosis and morphing instead of being built (every unit has an on/off switch, while on, they drain E and M, and when they've drained enough for a new unit, they split and the new unit has the same orders as the old one, unless the first order is a Wait in which case the Wait is removed - thus, a handful of idle units with a Wait order works as a factory). A faction with no static defenses at all - instead, you have static buffers that improve the resistance and rate-of-fire of units while they're standing next to them (but they have a depletable capacity to do so that regenerates slowly, so you need a lot of them if you're going to buff a big army)... stuff like that.

But either way, just like every other idea, that stuff would destroy CA as it currently exists.

[Otherside]

id prefer more factions and meaningful long term choices (no lab reclaiming and swapping at will) with smaller unit lists than a ton of factories in one faction.

Because tbh even in huge team games you wont use even half of what your faction has to offer in a normal game.

so yeh along the lines of what pxtl said :p.

Id prefer to work with what i got to try to beat the enemy rather than if enemy makes this factory i go this factory if enemy goes this other factory i reclaim my factory and build something else. Thats boring shit gameplay IMO

Ofc some of that goes out of the window in big team games with con sharing (tbh disabling con share would be awesome) but in small team games and 1v1 it would be great.