I'm not going to argue with your math, but any experienced player will tell you that reclaiming adv solars to build geos is pure stupidity. It's just not effective in real games.YokoZar wrote:If you're metal stalling by definition you have excess build power. You should never reclaim an econ unit unless you are metal stalling, which means you can spare some of that excess build power to do the reclaiming. I don't see how you could credibly claim otherwise.
The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
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Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
I'm not going to argue with your math, but any experienced player will tell you that reclaiming adv solars to build geos is pure stupidity. It's just not effective in real games.YokoZar wrote:If you're metal stalling by definition you have excess build power. You should never reclaim an econ unit unless you are metal stalling, which means you can spare some of that excess build power to do the reclaiming. I don't see how you could credibly claim otherwise.
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
Does Core has a "Consul"??
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
This is because you energy stall when you build geos more often than metal stall. The whole point of making a spreadsheet like this is to discover the counterintuitive things (like how it's worth it when metal stalling)Regret wrote:I'm not going to argue with your math, but any experienced player will tell you that reclaiming adv solars to build geos is pure stupidity. It's just not effective in real games.YokoZar wrote:If you're metal stalling by definition you have excess build power. You should never reclaim an econ unit unless you are metal stalling, which means you can spare some of that excess build power to do the reclaiming. I don't see how you could credibly claim otherwise.
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
It is not worth it when you're m stalling, you can just stop building shit when you need metal income.YokoZar wrote:This is because you energy stall when you build geos more often than metal stall. The whole point of making a spreadsheet like this is to discover the counterintuitive things (like how it's worth it when metal stalling)
It would be worth it if you had no metal income at all, i.e. no mexes, and no MMs, which is a really abstract situation.
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
Point. Really, it would probably be best just to gut the Fark altogether. It's a solution looking for a problem.NOiZE wrote:Does Core has a "Consul"??
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
nah make it faster and more stealthy :) then you could send them along with zippers and there would be a point to them once morePxtl wrote:Point. Really, it would probably be best just to gut the Fark altogether. It's a solution looking for a problem.NOiZE wrote:Does Core has a "Consul"??
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
Gutting FARK is a bad idea - yeah small buff like addition of stealth would be cool
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
stealth would make it too much like the rector imo. It has some value with being arms fastest con (non-air), you can nicely lay t1 mexes with it or whatever, but the cost is just too much for its worth almost always.
Maybe bring it to par or even better than freaker in bp or speed
Maybe bring it to par or even better than freaker in bp or speed
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
what a bs it is...
Some caveats:
* It doesn't consider mobility or crane time, so you'll need a bit of sense.
* Nor does it consider hit points or build options or weapons
what means ur calculations are worthless in game
Other interesting things:
* If you are metal stalled and spilling excess energy, the only thing you should be making is basic or floating metal makers. Moho metal makers are ok, but in such a situation their metal cost isn't worth it. epic bullshit, t2 mm is always > t1 mm
* Freakers are better than T2 con bots in every way, except of course for what they can build. wow u needed excel and calculator to find it out ?
* In general Core energy buildings are a better deal than Arm ones, with the important exception of the wind generator. The other exception is the Prude, for which there is no core equivalent. its EXTREMELY general
* Economically, the commander isn't worth his reclaim value in metal. This supports the theory behind the self-D eat-comm teching strategy. show me t2 air/nuke RUSH without com self d... reclaiming com to make fus is always more effective than reclaiming, lets say, normal solars
* The FARK is worse than the Freaker in every way, and is also worse than the rector/necro for much of its uses comment same as for freakers... fark is just mobile build power, how can u even compare him to rector O_o
some old and far better player than me already told u that if u suxx at spring, ur calculations also suxx. sorry to say, but this whole table is worth nothing in game.
reclaim adv solar to make geo - lol, reclaim idle lab which cannot build anything while u e stall while making geo
Some caveats:
* It doesn't consider mobility or crane time, so you'll need a bit of sense.
* Nor does it consider hit points or build options or weapons
what means ur calculations are worthless in game
Other interesting things:
* If you are metal stalled and spilling excess energy, the only thing you should be making is basic or floating metal makers. Moho metal makers are ok, but in such a situation their metal cost isn't worth it. epic bullshit, t2 mm is always > t1 mm
* Freakers are better than T2 con bots in every way, except of course for what they can build. wow u needed excel and calculator to find it out ?
* In general Core energy buildings are a better deal than Arm ones, with the important exception of the wind generator. The other exception is the Prude, for which there is no core equivalent. its EXTREMELY general
* Economically, the commander isn't worth his reclaim value in metal. This supports the theory behind the self-D eat-comm teching strategy. show me t2 air/nuke RUSH without com self d... reclaiming com to make fus is always more effective than reclaiming, lets say, normal solars
* The FARK is worse than the Freaker in every way, and is also worse than the rector/necro for much of its uses comment same as for freakers... fark is just mobile build power, how can u even compare him to rector O_o
some old and far better player than me already told u that if u suxx at spring, ur calculations also suxx. sorry to say, but this whole table is worth nothing in game.
reclaim adv solar to make geo - lol, reclaim idle lab which cannot build anything while u e stall while making geo
Re: The BA Economy Balance Spreadsheet
Wombat learn the quote tag
The common sense here was that some units may be worth building even if they're not miles away the favorite, but you have to use your own judgement in game about when those other factors are important.
Now, in fairness to you, by the time advanced fusion / nanospam economy rolls out things like attention and space and walk time become much more important, so saving a couple of metal or a few seconds to build t1 metal makers just before the moho metal maker goes up is often not worth it in "other" costs.
Still, there's real information here. T1 metal makers are demonstrably not worthless the moment moho metal makers start coming out. I've seen many players think they're smart by self destructing them at this point. This only makes sense if you are completely desperate for space or don't understand that the game's built in metal maker widget is reasonably smart.
I knew this was the correct thing to do because of calculations like this. I don't see how I could reasonably claim otherwise, except perhaps by doing an internal sort of calculation based on estimation -- it's true that I had always suspected there was a reasonable tidal value for which construction ships were better, but I couldn't tell you whether it was 15, 10, or somewhere in between.
Except of course when mobility and hit points are relatively unimportant, such as when you're building eco in your back base.Wombat wrote:what a bs it is...
Some caveats:
* It doesn't consider mobility or crane time, so you'll need a bit of sense.
* Nor does it consider hit points or build options or weapons
what means ur calculations are worthless in game
The common sense here was that some units may be worth building even if they're not miles away the favorite, but you have to use your own judgement in game about when those other factors are important.
I believe I have already proven otherwise. If you don't understand an argument that disagrees with your snap judgements that doesn't mean it's wrong.Other interesting things:
* If you are metal stalled and spilling excess energy, the only thing you should be making is basic or floating metal makers. Moho metal makers are ok, but in such a situation their metal cost isn't worth it.
epic bullshit, t2 mm is always > t1 mm
Now, in fairness to you, by the time advanced fusion / nanospam economy rolls out things like attention and space and walk time become much more important, so saving a couple of metal or a few seconds to build t1 metal makers just before the moho metal maker goes up is often not worth it in "other" costs.
Still, there's real information here. T1 metal makers are demonstrably not worthless the moment moho metal makers start coming out. I've seen many players think they're smart by self destructing them at this point. This only makes sense if you are completely desperate for space or don't understand that the game's built in metal maker widget is reasonably smart.
No, I needed to do math to prove it. A lot of players intuitively expect the t2 conbot to be better when its most obvious disadvantage (speed) isn't an issue anymore. This isn't the case - you should still build freakers to escort your moho mine team even when they're only walking a very short distance.* Freakers are better than T2 con bots in every way, except of course for what they can build. wow u needed excel and calculator to find it out ?
I don't know what your criticism means, but when I play arm/core 2 man coop we now have a small advantage because of this information.* In general Core energy buildings are a better deal than Arm ones, with the important exception of the wind generator. The other exception is the Prude, for which there is no core equivalent. its EXTREMELY general
Yes, this is true, but also obvious - just look at the reclaim value column in the spreadsheet when build power value = 0. Commander falls way behind.* Economically, the commander isn't worth his reclaim value in metal. This supports the theory behind the self-D eat-comm teching strategy. show me t2 air/nuke RUSH without com self d... reclaiming com to make fus is always more effective than reclaiming, lets say, normal solars
Because the intuitive thing to do is to use the Fast Assist Repair K-Bot for assisting and repairing.* The FARK is worse than the Freaker in every way, and is also worse than the rector/necro for much of its uses comment same as for freakers... fark is just mobile build power, how can u even compare him to rector O_o
I won a ffa on Throne yesterday by running into the ocean at the start and hiding in the corner. I knew that because the tide was 13 the best way for me to get energy until I could go T2 was to simply build construction ships.some old and far better player than me already told u that if u suxx at spring, ur calculations also suxx. sorry to say, but this whole table is worth nothing in game.
I knew this was the correct thing to do because of calculations like this. I don't see how I could reasonably claim otherwise, except perhaps by doing an internal sort of calculation based on estimation -- it's true that I had always suspected there was a reasonable tidal value for which construction ships were better, but I couldn't tell you whether it was 15, 10, or somewhere in between.
Yes, this is obvious. What's your point?reclaim adv solar to make geo - lol, reclaim idle lab which cannot build anything while u e stall while making geo