Dot Wars AI studies (KAIK vs RAI vs AAI)

[Master-Athmos]

Why not actually use the Dot Wars concept for something like analyzing AIs?

AIs fighting themselves:

AAI Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehKE0MyN9E0 (Comet Catcher)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eixf7XXYqUc (alternative config, Comet Catcher)

KAIK Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW2zUZGgcyU (Desert Siege)

RAI Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5YhtFeXusk (Desert Siege - unfinished due to crash bug)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCEvYNPbeM (Comet Catcher)

AIs fighting each other:

AAI vs RAI Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfqzkGr-1XY (Comet Catcher)

KAIK vs RAI Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDalAmZBts (Comet Catcher)

Initial comment towards the first KAIK and RAI videos:

Those two videos imo show why imo RAI is the way superior AI (when compared to KAIK). RAI shows a very good use of the commander who captures mexes, pushes forward and extensively uses the D-Gun (maybe at bit too much) while KAIK doesn't really seem to have any good use for him and in the beginning phase after having built a lab he usually just keeps standing for quite a while until some kind of trigger wakes him from his sleep again (with the labs usually not doing much this results in nearly complete idling for quite a while)...

KAIK also isn't very good in construction: besides labs, mexes and power plants (which it builds just very few from) it builds pretty much nothing - no turrets, no radar and so on. For having no real knowledge of the map RAI's turret placement is pretty good an it also builds stuff like radar...

Then there's the actual use of units where RAI again is superior: It uses everything from ground over air to sea (although I wouldn't really recommend playing on sea maps as it's a bit too hard for the AI's to figure things out in a smart way). So besides all kinds of ground units it right from the start begins to use bombers, gunships and mixed fighters into the groups and also uses air scouts. In contrast to that KAIK focuses pretty much just on ground units and may randomly order single bombers around later in the game not really using anything else though. Teching means pretty must just building higher tier labs, some upgraded mexes and rarely better power plants. My experience is though that it strongly focuses on just T1 spam...

Conclusion:

RAI:
Imo RAI is an excellent AI that at least gives a bit of a challenge (give boni and fight multiple ones if it's too easy for you). I'd even say there are just a few things it would need to do better at all: Just two things to be precise:

1.)
Its biggest weakness is the starting phase. While it does and excellent job at expanding and pushing forward with the Com it keeps its labs idling and for quite a long time there are next to no units around which also is the reason it sometimes loses to KAIK which can knock an unprepared base out. It just needs to produce at least some units right from the start. That's also a quite surprising point about RAI which imo also shows in the RAI video: At a certain point in the game it seems to activate an afterburner leading to extensive production of units used to attack the enemy and constructors building more eco structures. At this point RAI's strength skyrockets and you suddenly are faced with hordes of T1 and T2 units and usually there also appear T3 ones soon...

2.)
Besides the lack of action in the beginning RAI also only unfolds its powers when it's attacked. If no enemy will approach I always have the feeling it just sits there waiting - amassing some units at one spot (and nearly stop producing new when a certain amount is reached). Without being triggered i.e. attacked from someone it sits around too long doing nothing. When playing or watching some games with a RAI you might come up with one of the RAI's doing a pretty good job in attacking as it met some of its enemies while expanding while another one of the same team just sits there and does nothing. So if you want to "wake it up" when doing some singleplayer against RAI just send some light combat units to all of them so you can trigger their "attack mode"...

KAIK:
While KAIK isn't "bad" it to my mind lacks skill at many areas. Total newbies might enjoy the extensive T1 spam right from the start but an enemy who virtually has no AA or any defense that wasn't there just "by chance" because it was an attack group passing through is no challenge at all. Especially once you've reached T2 and apply units with lots of AoE damage you just have to have a few of such units and then let KAIK run into them and voilà you have an unbreakable defense. You also pretty much haven't to worry about any air defense at all which yet again might be newbie friendly. So maybe using KAIK really is a good advice for those totally new to the TA gameplay. Advanced users should switch to RAI imo (and hope the crash bug gets fixed soon )...

[hoijui]

COOL! :D

but..
you should mention some more details about the setup. for example.. the mod you play is pretty important
KAIK is meant to be played with BA, where it is best. this is not BA, as i can see from the icons.

I dont know which spring version you used, but current dev version has quite some crash bugs fixed, which happen especially when playing with many AIs (as in, more then 1 ).

When using dev version, its also always good ot report crash bugs, i am happy about them

keep this up!

[Master-Athmos]

I used Maximum Annihilation (V1.2) for both videos (wrote that into the video descriptions too). Gameplay basics are pretty much identical that way and because of no factory assist (together with the high bonus of 80%) maybe even a bit more accomodating...

I used the latest official release version - I guess I'll give the latest beta a try...

I'll probably do this on more maps and maybe even do a KAIK vs. RAI (if the beta will solve RAI's crashing - I guess using Com continues would make sense too). Anyone else is invited too recording such replays. I thought this might be a good way to analyze what the AIs are actually doing and uncovering certain weaknesses...

[Kloot]

no factory assist

To be fair (or not), that cripples KAIK, because RAI tends to build _many_ factories while KAIK sticks to just one or two assisted plants for a long time. I'd like to see a 3RAI v 3KAIK where that restriction is not in place.

[JohannesH]

I tried playing against a few KAIKs now, after seeing this vid. 1 easy thing to improve the AI: dont try to capture enemy transports. :D

[Master-Athmos]

To be fair (or not), that cripples KAIK, because RAI tends to build _many_ factories while KAIK sticks to just one or two assisted plants for a long time. I'd like to see a 3RAI v 3KAIK where that restriction is not in place.

It actually isn't a problem - thanks to what I guess is a decision based on resource income / spent resources it also will build lots of factories. So it adapts just fine that way...

The huge letdown (that will make it lose against RAI) is the 3-5 minute builder idling (time amount is guessed). KAIK usually uses the Com to build 2-3 power plants, 2-3 mexes and a lab. After that the Commander just starts sitting there. It then also builds 2 constructors pretty fast - those keep idling too though. In the meantime it does a pretty good job in spamming some units and attack with them. That's also the point where KAIK has a bit of an upper hand as RAI only has very few units at that time. As KAIK won't expand though for 3-5 minutes it gets outnumbered by RAI forces usually just when finally waking up and using the Com and the Cons (usually for building 2-3 additional labs)...

I wanted to make a video about that but while RAI works stable in 0.8 it now is KAIK which crashes...

[hoijui]

maybe KAI is trying to assist in those 3-5 minutes.

[Master-Athmos]

Well the Commander usually walks to another mex spot after finishing the lab and then stays near that mex so it's not about assisting. That also cannot be a reason as I saw no constructors idling around labs after the game continues. You can already watch this just as the idling in the beginning in the KAIK Video...

EDIT:
In that video you also see a rare occasion: The two constructors of the greenish player on the right wake up sooner out of their sleep than the Com or the constructors of e.g. the blue or yellow player on the left...

EDIT2:
It also shows the "lab spam" when the constructors wake up. Watch e.g. right side's green commander...

[eyu100]

Could you also make a video with E323AI? E323 said it could beat every other AI at XTA.

[hoijui]

yeah, that one is usable now in the RC, and it really only is good at XTA as of now (though Error will change that soon). I guess Maximum Annihilation was used casue of the icons mainly, which of course add something to dotwars. BA and XTA both lack some in this area.

[Master-Athmos]

I tried to use it but despite it initializing and writing its logs it won't move the commander. At least not with the 0.8 beta Spring I used...

[Master-Athmos]

Added a finished RAI game on Comet Catcher Redux now. I'll see one of the latest builds fix the new KAIK problem so I'll do some competitive videos on different maps...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCEvYNPbeM

[Spawn_Retard]

Added a finished RAI game on Comet Catcher Redux now. I'll see one of the latest builds fix the new KAIK problem so I'll do some competitive videos on different maps...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCEvYNPbeM

thats some sweet music

[Master-Athmos]

So here's a first KAIK vs RAI video although I doesn't last long due to KAIK idling...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfDalAmZBts

[hoijui]

so what.. KAIK now does not crash anymore?
i dont get it.. last KAIK changes are ..weeks.. months in the past

[Master-Athmos]

It still does crash but the game didn't take too long and it was a bit of luck I guess...

[Master-Athmos]

Update:

Now AAI enters the fray:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehKE0MyN9E0

My conclusion after not having used it for quite a while:

Pros:

• It builds metal storages & jammers (although not too many and not too clever in terms of jammers although that doesn't really matter).
• It seems to have a rough idea of where an enemy is and does lines of turrets according to that (usually east-west here as it's a top-down battle). It might do a bit too much of them though (and generally LLTs only) but maybe some other config values fix that.
• It makes good use of scouts.
• It is able to assign multiple constructors to e.g. help build a single lab.
• It switches to higher tiers rather than actually just having additional factories that add in some more units to the general spam - i.e. with T2 / T3 around there is just little T1 stuff built.
• It makes extensive use of Big Berthas.
• Attacks don't just consist of a bulk of units taking the same route to the enemy plus this route being the one usually used. Instead it manages to use several slightly spread routes and when facing an enemy it also tries to get his units in a line rather than just rushing them in one after another.

Cons:

• It doesn't really use bombers or fighter at all and gunships are just built rarely.
• It doesn't seem to use all of the resources it should have - when comparing to KAIK and RAI the actual unit count built is rather low.
• It seems to have problems with high numbers of units. While the unit use is pretty much excellent in the first phase of the game things start to get worse later. Especially in the final phase of the game the southern yellow and pink player have insane amounts of units in their base which just stand around instead of totally overwhelming the enemy.
• It also has problems in finding new targets and pretty much reacts just to triggering later on. Especially look how pink kills the top right enemy. After that his mechs just stand around there for minutes. Then after a very long time it moves them to the middle of the map where they also stand around for minutes. They just started to move again when some enemy units appeared in their range and the mechs went after them / continued progressing in that direction. That also might be a reason for the immense army idling - it seems they wait for a trigger from the enemy.
• The actual starting spot seems to cause some problems too. Look e.g. at the top right and bottom left players. They both have a pretty much identical starting position but both Coms will idle for a long time after having built an extractor will all the others progress just fine. This also seems to be a general behaviour at those spots (I always experienced the same reaction at those spots).
• It builds no Anti-Nukes at all. So that's a safe tactic to beat it.
• While the use of several attack routes and lining up of units when facing the enemy is nice it lacks a bit of a motivation to attack and so an attack run often comes to a halt when just a few or a single unit is encountered. You often also see cases where it just should rush the units in.

So as a conclusion AAI has some nice approaches and the "learning" ability might have some influence too (I might make it play a couple of matches on Comet Catcher and check for changes). Some follow up videos should show this but in my opinion it is inferior to RAI and KAIK as it's playing a bit too slow and defensive while not exploiting the entire resources it has.

Update 2:

AAI vs RAI:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfqzkGr-1XY

[JohannesH]

Why use MA and why give them bonus? I dont think any AI was designed with that in mind...

[Societal]

What .cfg did you use for MA with AAI?

If you have the time for a rematch you can try my modified BA config for AAI. I assume MAX_ASSISTANTS 6 should be changed to 0 if the mod doesn't allow it. I made this to make AAI Arm vs AAI Core more even. In my tests Arm almost always won early due to success with the very first scout wave. Reducing the MAX_SCOUTS 6 to 4 solved that part because AAI seems to always start off by building a scout wave of whatever the max size is. I added in variables for a lot of the documented lines that weren't present in the default BA config. I pushed back the production of defenses until later on (determined by factories present) and lowered the max defenses because (as you mentioned) AAI does use Berthas however I found it building them at least 10 minutes before it should in regards to the rest of its economy.

[Master-Athmos]

Why use MA and why give them bonus? I dont think any AI was designed with that in mind...

I used MA because it keeps the standard OTA gameplay the AI's were designed towards (in contrast to e.g. CA where you have advanced features like jetjumping, terraforming, morphing and so on having the potential to e.g. lead to weaknesses for one of the factions). I then gave boni because that's the way you'll want to have them when actually fighting them because if you give them no bonus they simply are bad. Maybe that's because I'm experienced player but I guess even newbies very soon would beat AIs without any bonus...

With the radar icon system it also is probably the only TA mod (except for NOTA where AIs don't work that good imo though due to some gameplay changes) where you have any real oversight about what the AI actually builds. In BA for example you won't really know if a turret, a radar or a power plant was built as it's all a square which is important for an analysis...

I also could check my internal version for crash bugs that way...

What .cfg did you use for MA with AAI?

I altered the BA config a bit - I can try things again with your config...

Scouts aren't really a problem in MA (I even set the number up a bit) as they have no weapons but just high view range and stealth.