i do NOT want arm to have a giant counter for the krogoth.
This is undermining the basic diffrencses of the teams.
Core, strong, slow, normal big war machines. Nothing special.
Arm, small, fast, tech based race. More types of units and speacil units.
IF arm is gonna have any counter, have something like a paralysing sniper or an UBER laser wepon with giant reload time (30 seconds) that cuts the krogoth's HP bar in 1/3. Pretty slow targeting, but fast enough't to hit a moving krogoth. Also, cost should be a litthe lower then krogoth. HP should be about 1 or 2 goliath. Range... krogoth * 2?
Or something smilar. Remebear, it can't target anything faster then a krogoth, and it's fires VERY slow. Meaning that it will SUCK at tackling swarms of units.
A nemises for the Krogath?
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Lindir The Green
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I still don't think that ARM should have a direct counter for a krogoth, but if it did, it would be something extremely good at raiding that would make it so that if CORE porces with a krog, ARM will win.
Maybe a super spider tank that has two stun lasers and 1 lightning gun. It would also have very fast speed and would be able to climb vertical walls.
Maybe a super spider tank that has two stun lasers and 1 lightning gun. It would also have very fast speed and would be able to climb vertical walls.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
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- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Optimus:
A: if you don't knowtice speed then you are compleatly ignoring micromanagement and deserve to lose the battle. I'm sorry, but speed is a decicive factor to combat. Bulldogs are fast enough to pick thier battlegrounds against goli, that means you are free to keep your bulldogs aways from the enemy doomsday when you fight your goli, but a goli who come into range of an annihilator is going to fight everything that comes at it within it's range until it is destroyed, or die trying.
B: Goli's have an exorbidant energy cost to fire, you really can't push a base with golis until you have a fusion up, because if you do you will just run out of energy and end up losing your goli to peewees. Bulldogs conversly have no energy requirement. Bullgods have the advantage of doing TONNES of damange whenever the hell they want.
C: Krogoth better then goli for thier price for one simple fact. Krogoth is able to do full damage until you have removed every single one of his 105250 hitpoints. He is able to move between the speed of a goli and a bulldog, acctually just fast enough to allow a smart player to retreat him before he dies to an annihilator (good luck doing that with a goli) and he signifigantly outranges both, which is a massive factor in smart combat as well.
The fact of the matter is, raw stats are really misleading when it comes to balance issues. All the stats are important to who wins and who loses and under what conditions that will happen in. Also, you left out build time, which might seem irrelevent, but small build time units will get pushed out of an unaided factory far faster, which acctually equates to much less metal and energy spent on them if you help the factory.
A: if you don't knowtice speed then you are compleatly ignoring micromanagement and deserve to lose the battle. I'm sorry, but speed is a decicive factor to combat. Bulldogs are fast enough to pick thier battlegrounds against goli, that means you are free to keep your bulldogs aways from the enemy doomsday when you fight your goli, but a goli who come into range of an annihilator is going to fight everything that comes at it within it's range until it is destroyed, or die trying.
B: Goli's have an exorbidant energy cost to fire, you really can't push a base with golis until you have a fusion up, because if you do you will just run out of energy and end up losing your goli to peewees. Bulldogs conversly have no energy requirement. Bullgods have the advantage of doing TONNES of damange whenever the hell they want.
C: Krogoth better then goli for thier price for one simple fact. Krogoth is able to do full damage until you have removed every single one of his 105250 hitpoints. He is able to move between the speed of a goli and a bulldog, acctually just fast enough to allow a smart player to retreat him before he dies to an annihilator (good luck doing that with a goli) and he signifigantly outranges both, which is a massive factor in smart combat as well.
The fact of the matter is, raw stats are really misleading when it comes to balance issues. All the stats are important to who wins and who loses and under what conditions that will happen in. Also, you left out build time, which might seem irrelevent, but small build time units will get pushed out of an unaided factory far faster, which acctually equates to much less metal and energy spent on them if you help the factory.
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
@SwiftSpear:
- like I said, my camparison is for BIG battles and i dont think that you can micromanagement a single Bulldog in a fight with 100 or more, when your Bulldog is in the middle of the mass
- Speed isnt important if you are the attacker. The Base cant move and so you bind the Bulls to your range. If he dont send them, his base is ash
- Range is an important factor too, and the gold and krog have a much bigger one
- i dont think that you can attack with 10 or more gols (thats for me a minimum of a a big battle) without a fusion reactor
I sometimes play with a friend against other Players and everytime i have gols or krogs the game is over. Last game we habd only 2 Krogs and we lost nothing in the whole game against 2 Players with a much higher rank -.-
The only chance of a lose with core against arm is a rush and my experience in the lobby says the same every game I play there. From my 20 games there I lost none of them against bulldogs.
- like I said, my camparison is for BIG battles and i dont think that you can micromanagement a single Bulldog in a fight with 100 or more, when your Bulldog is in the middle of the mass
- Speed isnt important if you are the attacker. The Base cant move and so you bind the Bulls to your range. If he dont send them, his base is ash
- Range is an important factor too, and the gold and krog have a much bigger one
- i dont think that you can attack with 10 or more gols (thats for me a minimum of a a big battle) without a fusion reactor
I sometimes play with a friend against other Players and everytime i have gols or krogs the game is over. Last game we habd only 2 Krogs and we lost nothing in the whole game against 2 Players with a much higher rank -.-
The only chance of a lose with core against arm is a rush and my experience in the lobby says the same every game I play there. From my 20 games there I lost none of them against bulldogs.
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 01:10
Do you want a REAL Krogoth killer? how about a Flash on a huge dose of sterroids?
This unit has a 45mm gatling cannon that can rip everything apart, Krogoth can't take 2 of these attacking it.
For XTA I had to jack up the damage and it's armor since it was originally half as strong as a Krogoth, the changes reflect the same ballance.
This unit is particulary vunerable to long range attacks and rushes, unlike the Krogoth, but it's deadly stream of anti-matter shells can kill almost anything in seconds.
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1640
This unit has a 45mm gatling cannon that can rip everything apart, Krogoth can't take 2 of these attacking it.
For XTA I had to jack up the damage and it's armor since it was originally half as strong as a Krogoth, the changes reflect the same ballance.
This unit is particulary vunerable to long range attacks and rushes, unlike the Krogoth, but it's deadly stream of anti-matter shells can kill almost anything in seconds.
http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1640
Don't forget that every uber unit we add to counter an other unit we get an ever STRONGER unit to deal with.
"Hmm... this unit is to strong. Lets add a bigger and better unit to kill it!"
*2 weeks later"
"Hmm... this new unit is to strong. Lets add a bigger and better unit to kill it!"
Wash, rence and repeat. Volia, you get a problem on repeat!
"Hmm... this unit is to strong. Lets add a bigger and better unit to kill it!"
*2 weeks later"
"Hmm... this new unit is to strong. Lets add a bigger and better unit to kill it!"
Wash, rence and repeat. Volia, you get a problem on repeat!
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
Not really, if you set up the game so that it's a rock/paper/scissors equation, it could be perfectly balanced. Only problem with RPS balancing is the game gets stale very quickly.Kixxe wrote:Don't forget that every uber unit we add to counter an other unit we get an ever STRONGER unit to deal with.
"Hmm... this unit is to strong. Lets add a bigger and better unit to kill it!"
*2 weeks later"
"Hmm... this new unit is to strong. Lets add a bigger and better unit to kill it!"
Wash, rence and repeat. Volia, you get a problem on repeat!
Alternatively, Nuke/Antinuke exists, so why not Krogoth/Antikrogoth?
Hahahaha, sort of a little pillbox that looks, in a 3000 unit range, and fires prebuilt missiles at krogs, blowing them up in one hit.
edit: Optimus - Look at my suggestion, and think of how stupid it would to have a single unit that's an anti of another unit. Nukes are something you'd expect to have direct counters to, because they facilitate indirect assault. However, Krogoths are mobile, and can act as defense, offense, or intermediate skirmishers (stretch your imagination, here). There is no other unit that can stop a nuke other than a scarab or hedgehog, but a peewee can stop a krogoth if given enough time (and the krog is on hold fire).
Now that Krogoths can no longer be airlifted, it seems the greatest asset that a Krogoth has is it's power. Dragons teeth are still brutally effective at stopping them, even more so that they can't bypass them.
As for newer units, I think cloakable stealth crawling bombs would be absolutely awesome. It fits the guerilla warfare tactics of the ARM group well.
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
sorry I dont know exactly what u want me to say (I dont speak english very good).
But your counternuke isnt something what i think would be a good counter.
Make the Penetrator (for example) a counterkrogothunit. Its weak against nearly all Units but Krogoths it can kill. Let them do quaddamage or trippledamage to a Krogoth so that its only GOOD against them and not that you are unstoppable with a horde of them. So if you have 1 krog and you fight against 5 Penetrators the Krog wins with a lot of taken damage.
And if you only pump Krogs and the Arm pumps Penetrators he should win. But if the Coreplayer pumps Krogs and Gols he should win and so on... a bit more taktik and strategy would be nice.
But your counternuke isnt something what i think would be a good counter.
Make the Penetrator (for example) a counterkrogothunit. Its weak against nearly all Units but Krogoths it can kill. Let them do quaddamage or trippledamage to a Krogoth so that its only GOOD against them and not that you are unstoppable with a horde of them. So if you have 1 krog and you fight against 5 Penetrators the Krog wins with a lot of taken damage.
And if you only pump Krogs and the Arm pumps Penetrators he should win. But if the Coreplayer pumps Krogs and Gols he should win and so on... a bit more taktik and strategy would be nice.
but Penitrators are the scaple of your force. They go in and hit a singe unit/building HARD and FAST, then move away. They arent artillery, they arent front line units and they arent air support, air defence or any other role. Very specilized, see. So if you made them JUST a Krogg killer, then wha t the hell good would they be against anything else?
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
argh! Please think a bit alone ^^. This is just a suggestion. The real balancing is a work over weeks of testing and hard.
If they are too useless make them stronger or let them be usefull against more units.
And if all coreplayers tech to Krogoths i dont think that they will become useless cause you destroy the maintaktik of the most coreplayers if you build a lot of them and you kill all their krogs with half of the res he needed to build them. Than after you destroyed the Krogs you make a counter with Bulldogs or so...
If they are too useless make them stronger or let them be usefull against more units.
And if all coreplayers tech to Krogoths i dont think that they will become useless cause you destroy the maintaktik of the most coreplayers if you build a lot of them and you kill all their krogs with half of the res he needed to build them. Than after you destroyed the Krogs you make a counter with Bulldogs or so...
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
Yes.and thats exactly what i call an unbalaned game... -.-
Even if a skilled core commander should be able to ward flash tanks off, and and then get a huge advantge is the late game, it's still stupid.
Why?
Since everyone will offcourse pick arm and rush since that is the esayest. If you have 2 players of eqwal skill but diffrent races, it shoud't mean that the other one wins just because he choose that race. Plus, you can choose less. If your arm, you rush. If your core, you defend. NO, if your arm, you do WTF you want, and can still win. You can porc, you can play defencive and expand, you can build gunships, you can have your ally protect you while you rush to leve 2....
As i see it, we have 2 choices:
1:We can build a anti-unit for arm, that can be usefull agsint more then one unit type. Put krogoths in a type, and make a anti-whatever towards that type. For example, put it in to the Slow type and make a wepon with low targeting speed but hig damage.
2: We lower the krogoths overall health untill it's beatebole and still worth the cash, meaning you have to combine krogoths and other units to win a game.
Oh, and i've seen krogoths ONCE outside a metal map. it was on redhaven where a guy did'nt build ANY defences at all almost and almost got owend bye a bulldog attack got out 1 krogoth... and then 2 more later.
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 01:10
they are uber tactical krogoth killers or at least should be-
SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Haven't played XTA recently have we? The instigator is more then a match for the flash tank, and even AKs do quite enough damage to deal with flash 1v1. Right up until the krogoth appears the game is balanced... The krogoth used to be counterable with atlas, but that was an iffy solution at best, now the thing is just invicible. This "the counter to krogoth is not letting core get krogoth" argument doesn't hold water. That isn't a blanced game, that is by definition an imbalanced game.Sheekel wrote:I think the Krogoth Counter is the Flash tank. No, not krog vs. Flash, but in terms of early/late game. There is no flash tank counter, so arm owns in early game. There is no Krogoth counter, so Core owns in late game.
Nice tank Ground_Zero!
The krogoth needs to either be removed, or it needs a counter. One way or another I'm happy. There are millions of possible counters and only half of them are large units. This doesn't have to be so hard.