isnt it a bit unfair that The Core get a gient Robot and arm do not ?
why not give the arm one too, Give the krogath some competition and i mean real competition.
everygame i see so far i see the krogath just walk past and palverise everything in site dont get me wrong i think its bloody brilliant.
because face it The krogath is just using arm as Target practise unless you have a huge army or a bunch defence it cannot be stopped.
so what do you all say lets design a nemises for it put the Krogath into some real good use.
A nemises for the Krogath?
Moderator: Moderators
Direct counters suck, there's no fun in that.
You just have to use your head when facing krogoths. Scatter some DT around to screw up their pathfinding. Place defenses in such a way that the krogoth can't or has problems firing at them. Make the DT "guide" the krogoth into a trap of some sort by putting it in a V formation. Use spiders to paralyze them, and mavericks to rape them. Use berthas and scouting to pick them off from a distance. I imagine those new Raven units also do a nice job of mopping up Krogoths with their range as well. Gunships are decent against krogoths, to distract them while other units fire on them if for no other reason. Annihilators/Penetrators/Snipers do massive amounts of damage to krogoths and have considerable range. And of course, there's always the massive nuclear assault.
There's no reason you can't defend against krogoths as Arm.
You just have to use your head when facing krogoths. Scatter some DT around to screw up their pathfinding. Place defenses in such a way that the krogoth can't or has problems firing at them. Make the DT "guide" the krogoth into a trap of some sort by putting it in a V formation. Use spiders to paralyze them, and mavericks to rape them. Use berthas and scouting to pick them off from a distance. I imagine those new Raven units also do a nice job of mopping up Krogoths with their range as well. Gunships are decent against krogoths, to distract them while other units fire on them if for no other reason. Annihilators/Penetrators/Snipers do massive amounts of damage to krogoths and have considerable range. And of course, there's always the massive nuclear assault.
There's no reason you can't defend against krogoths as Arm.
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Deathkight
- Posts: 35
- Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 13:03
Don't flame me for making this suggestion, it's just an idea I'm throwing out to be heard: What about making an Adv. ARM Vehicle? basically it'd be like a mobile fusion with an Annihilator BLoD on it, or dual DDM BLoD's or something like that.Dwarden wrote:why it must be robot ? ... i mean what about giant spider or hovercraft or something else ... bit originality into ...or what about mobile fortress ... like 3 moving annihilators + some ultra heavy plasmas :)
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Deathkight
- Posts: 35
- Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 13:03
its a good idea i like the sound of it.
but i am thinking something simerlar to the krogath, something that doesnt get destroyed easy and with the simerlar kind of fire power
it just makes the game a bit right winged because arm havnt got anything like that and you have to work so hard to knock something so big with a huge amount of health.
.... kinda think of it that sounds like a good idea for a core mission too
..The Arm forces are developing a new weapon to match the krogaths power distroy all protypes of this project .... or something like that lol
but i am thinking something simerlar to the krogath, something that doesnt get destroyed easy and with the simerlar kind of fire power
it just makes the game a bit right winged because arm havnt got anything like that and you have to work so hard to knock something so big with a huge amount of health.
.... kinda think of it that sounds like a good idea for a core mission too
..The Arm forces are developing a new weapon to match the krogaths power distroy all protypes of this project .... or something like that lol
... Krogoth Encounter, except the other way around?
If you have multiple Krogoths on your ass, ESPECIALLY on a small map, then you deserve to lose... there's no reason you should be allowing your enemy to ever get one Krog, much less several, on a small map...
Making a unit directly as strong as the Krogoth for arm won't do anything except make the game boring. Cavedog saw this, any online player knows this, the SYs continue to see this. There are boatloads of ways to kill krogoths.
There are plenty of heavy weapon platforms available for the arm--learn to use them instead of trying to add more units which just further upset the balance.
If you have multiple Krogoths on your ass, ESPECIALLY on a small map, then you deserve to lose... there's no reason you should be allowing your enemy to ever get one Krog, much less several, on a small map...
Making a unit directly as strong as the Krogoth for arm won't do anything except make the game boring. Cavedog saw this, any online player knows this, the SYs continue to see this. There are boatloads of ways to kill krogoths.
There are plenty of heavy weapon platforms available for the arm--learn to use them instead of trying to add more units which just further upset the balance.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
Then it would be XTA which is at fault.
Again, as Gnome has repeatedly stressed, counter for counter units are the easy way out of balancing, and they are the weakest way to do such balancing. In the end, you have Warcraft II, where the sides look different, but play exactly the same.
There is a distinct reason why each side has units the other doesn't have. Besides, a unit like the Krogoth doesn't fit in with the general "feel" of the Arm side. Its like the Rebel Alliance building ATAT walkers. It just isn't right.
Again, as Gnome has repeatedly stressed, counter for counter units are the easy way out of balancing, and they are the weakest way to do such balancing. In the end, you have Warcraft II, where the sides look different, but play exactly the same.
There is a distinct reason why each side has units the other doesn't have. Besides, a unit like the Krogoth doesn't fit in with the general "feel" of the Arm side. Its like the Rebel Alliance building ATAT walkers. It just isn't right.
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Deathkight
- Posts: 35
- Joined: 24 Sep 2005, 13:03
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GrOuNd_ZeRo
- Posts: 1370
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 01:10
A long time ago I made the perfect counter, the M660 Predator, it was a Gatling tank that could diss out massive damage and on the same time take it as well, I never tried it against Krogoths but i'm sure a few of them could easilly take one.
There is also the TADD M1A4 Campbell, it kinda sucked, it had a Goliath Gun, Starburt Rocketlaunchers and the Scorpion laser, but in XTA that unit would do better I reckon.
I have considdered reintroducing the Predator in XTA, heavilly reballanced and remodeled, but I can't get the general feel of that unit anymore.
I'll give it another shot, this wouldn't be a direct counter, but definitly a way to ease the pain when Krogoths come.
There is also the TADD M1A4 Campbell, it kinda sucked, it had a Goliath Gun, Starburt Rocketlaunchers and the Scorpion laser, but in XTA that unit would do better I reckon.
I have considdered reintroducing the Predator in XTA, heavilly reballanced and remodeled, but I can't get the general feel of that unit anymore.
I'll give it another shot, this wouldn't be a direct counter, but definitly a way to ease the pain when Krogoths come.
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
the reaseon why a Krog and every single strong unit is better than a dozen of weak units:
In XTA you cant shoot over your own units like in OTA (only with ballistic weapons) so when you want to stop one krogoth with 100 mavericks, only 5-10% of em can shoot even if they are in range, so the single unit can take one after another with getting only a few damage.
And for arm the annihilator isn a real help because you cant attack with them so the krogoth walks back to base if he has less than half hp and you can repair him coming back with 2 or more.
A good core player wins in 100% against a good arm player in mid or lategame and for me a rushgame, where arm can beat core isnt fun.
Thats the reason why I think there must be counterunits with special damage for arm, to stop gols and krogs.
I m testing at the moment my own XTA balance where i put these changes in. Its nearly in endstage so if you want you can test it in some days (I changed a lot more too).
In XTA you cant shoot over your own units like in OTA (only with ballistic weapons) so when you want to stop one krogoth with 100 mavericks, only 5-10% of em can shoot even if they are in range, so the single unit can take one after another with getting only a few damage.
And for arm the annihilator isn a real help because you cant attack with them so the krogoth walks back to base if he has less than half hp and you can repair him coming back with 2 or more.
A good core player wins in 100% against a good arm player in mid or lategame and for me a rushgame, where arm can beat core isnt fun.
Thats the reason why I think there must be counterunits with special damage for arm, to stop gols and krogs.
I m testing at the moment my own XTA balance where i put these changes in. Its nearly in endstage so if you want you can test it in some days (I changed a lot more too).
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Lindir The Green
- Posts: 815
- Joined: 04 May 2005, 15:09
A direct counter for a krogoth would make no sense, but ARM already has many inderect counters.
ARM Brawlers are better than CORE Rapiers
ARM has penetrators
ARM has berthas
ARM has FARKS
ARM mavericks are better than the CORE counterpart (I think morties)
the ARM energy weapon is better than the CORE doomsday device
ARM freedom fighters are better than CORE avengers.
The list is longer, but I don't have it memorized.
CORE has many things better than ARM, and ARM has many things better than CORE, but I think it all equals out.
ARM Brawlers are better than CORE Rapiers
ARM has penetrators
ARM has berthas
ARM has FARKS
ARM mavericks are better than the CORE counterpart (I think morties)
the ARM energy weapon is better than the CORE doomsday device
ARM freedom fighters are better than CORE avengers.
The list is longer, but I don't have it memorized.
CORE has many things better than ARM, and ARM has many things better than CORE, but I think it all equals out.
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
- Brawlers are fine, but flak can kill em very fast so u can counter em easyly.
- Penetrators SUCK (their weapon is weak and they cant shoot over themselve): you need nearly a minute to kill a gol, than think how long u need for a Krog -.-.
- Berthas against Krogs and Gols? Thats not funny
- FARKS against Gols and Krogs? U know what a Krogoth is? o.O
- Arm Annihilator is sup OK, but like i said u can only use it to defend.
Your list says nothing because arm can have 1000 Units better than 1000 Core Units. If Core has only 2 units which are much better than all the others from arm. And thats it like it is at the moment.
- Penetrators SUCK (their weapon is weak and they cant shoot over themselve): you need nearly a minute to kill a gol, than think how long u need for a Krog -.-.
- Berthas against Krogs and Gols? Thats not funny
- FARKS against Gols and Krogs? U know what a Krogoth is? o.O
- Arm Annihilator is sup OK, but like i said u can only use it to defend.
Your list says nothing because arm can have 1000 Units better than 1000 Core Units. If Core has only 2 units which are much better than all the others from arm. And thats it like it is at the moment.
Why that? In OTA you have a lot counterunits which all make sense... and other RTS games have counterunits too which all make sense. Otherwise you build only the best unit and spam them in masses cause u know that they can handle everything.A direct counter for a krogoth would make no sense, but ARM already has many inderect counters.
Honestly I think a good part of the problems with balance in spring do have to do with having to work around the fact that units can't fire past friendlies... I mean, making a huge field of rocket towers used to be a perfect defence against brawlers... now they are crap... you used to be able to do some damage with peewees even against a krog, because they swarms in there... but now only the front line can hit... I think it would be helpful if we had a "can shoot past friendly units even if it hit the collition sphere" weapon type for units designed for swarming...
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Optimus Prime
- Posts: 755
- Joined: 03 Oct 2005, 14:31
I agree with Sindbad, but that would only help to make the races more balanced.
But it wouldnt help, to make all units usefull. For example Core:
Why should a Player build a Reaper, if he can build Goliaths which are much stronger for their money? Or why he should build Goliaths if he can build Krogoths which are stronger than the goliaths for their money and can shoot everything.
Without a (direct) countersystem there is allways ONE unit which is the best against nearly all and thats not like it should be I think.
And thats the reason why XTA needs counterunits, else you have only the choice between a hand full of units and 90% of the units are only build by noobs.
But it wouldnt help, to make all units usefull. For example Core:
Why should a Player build a Reaper, if he can build Goliaths which are much stronger for their money? Or why he should build Goliaths if he can build Krogoths which are stronger than the goliaths for their money and can shoot everything.
Without a (direct) countersystem there is allways ONE unit which is the best against nearly all and thats not like it should be I think.
And thats the reason why XTA needs counterunits, else you have only the choice between a hand full of units and 90% of the units are only build by noobs.
i'm hoping the SY's ignore this entire thread ¬.¬ no collision spheres? lol go back to OTA then, don't like xta kroggies? post a spam free thread ABOUT kroggies saying BALANCE ISSUE: KROGS and then take ages making a post which makes sense, and why a krog can beat its cost of DT and anni's well placed, let alone the sheer BT u have! krogs take forever
and late late late game where u can pump a krog a min they are a gamewinner as they are supposed to be, if a game i play gets to that point i'll be GLAD to see that krog x,x
and late late late game where u can pump a krog a min they are a gamewinner as they are supposed to be, if a game i play gets to that point i'll be GLAD to see that krog x,x
The collision detection is one of the best feature of Spring. Removing it is a bad solution.
It MUST be taken in account when balancing game.
For exemple : I saw somewere that penetrator was not a good unit...but it can fire through pitbull and other "low" tank.
So a mixed army will be better than a mass, even if some units seems to be not cost effective.
It MUST be taken in account when balancing game.
For exemple : I saw somewere that penetrator was not a good unit...but it can fire through pitbull and other "low" tank.
So a mixed army will be better than a mass, even if some units seems to be not cost effective.