Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released!

Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released!

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Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Supreme Legacy v1.1 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Image

Supreme Legacy is an interesting concept I've been working on for awhile that involves improved balancing of the original two races, in addition to adding a third. Most people would agree that adding a third race to a well balanced Real Time Strategy Game adds an extra depth and dynamic to it, which is why many popular RTS games, such as the original Starcraft and the original SupCom start with 3 races.

When deciding what race to add, TLL seemed almost like a "no-brainer" to me. The race is so well done and polished that it almost feels like it was done by Cavedog Studios themselves. They have a unit for almost every unit role that Arm and Core have, and then some. Obviously some of the third party units that were added to the original races later (such as the Juno) were not covered by the mod's developer, but you will find that the new race makes up for that in other ways.

My main goal in SL was too give Total Annihilation a brand new feel and in a sense resurrect it from the same old boring 8v8 DSD games that seem to permeate the game lobby almost indiscriminately. Supreme Legacy was balanced using Tired's very complex mathematical equation which is so much more effective for balancing, in every sense of the word, than the more popular guess and check method that most mods primarily use these days. I think that you will find Supreme Legacy to have a much more balanced/polished feel between units and influence games to be more evenly matched and diverse. Rather than just seeing the same old units and strategies used time and time again.

In addition to all these benefits, SL also enjoys vastly improved graphical upgrades over Balanced Annihilation for many of the most used units/weapons and explosions. While I realize that special effects don't actually change the gameplay, they do, from my experience, make it more enjoyable and fun.

To summarize, you should play Supreme Legacy primarily because it is much more balanced than the mod you happen to be playing right now. The effects are much prettier. And to seal the deal there's an entire new faction of units to explore.

I hope you enjoy all my hard work.

Major Changes From BA:

-Units more balanced
Units in SL are balanced using Tired's complex mathematical equation instead of the rudimentary "guess and check" method that most (if not all) other mods use.

-All units worth using
Since all the units in SL share the same formula for balance, they are consistent with one another, and are all worth using.

-Added a new race!
The TLL race has been added and also balanced with the two original factions.

-Reclaim speed lowered a bit
This is in order to create battles over metal corpses instead of just having the first person to get a con unit to them win. It also gives a more defined role to some units that were rarely used in BA (i.e.Thuds and Hammers.)

-Resurrection bots moved to T2
This may sound bad at first, but as a result of moving them to T2, their ability to resurrect is actually worth using. Unlike before, a rez bot is now actually good at its job, and can rez and repair units in a matter of seconds.

-Con kbot speed increased slightly
This change was made too somewhat nullify the lack of (ultimately imbalanced) massive reclaim speed of the T1 rez bot role in BA. Con kbots are now better at moving around the battlefield quickly.

-T1 kbot AA can shoot ground
It never made sense to me why T1 vehicle AA could shoot ground but T1 kbot AA could not. Fixed.

-Adding 3rd party widgets disabled
This is to discourage/eliminate the unfair or downright broken widgets that are so common in popular mods.

That's about it!

Special thanks goes too: Tired, Noize, Basic, and Norausman. Without all your help this release wouldn't have been possible.

Special thanks especially goes to Lurker, a special man who I want to have his special babies. <3 you Lurker.

I am aware that the new race (TLL) can not build sea units yet. This will resolved in the next version.

*Due to the nature and incredible amounts of work that Supreme Legacy took, I have a feeling that people will start to release fake versions in the near future. Please note that any version of SL not personally released by me is stealing and is NOT official.*

*Keep in mind that since it is the first release, the balance will not be perfect. Make sure to post any bugs/errors/balance issues in the proper forum thread and I will tend to them as soon as possible. Remember that the more feedback you give me, the better I can make the mod.*

Enjoy!

Download!
Last edited by Wingflier on 24 Mar 2009, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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MidKnight
Posts: 2652
Joined: 10 Sep 2008, 03:11

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by MidKnight »

I will play this mod and comment on it.

Until then, this post is my placeholder, a talisman that says "I saw the release post first," and a testament to my clicking speed. :P
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Otherside
Posts: 2296
Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Otherside »

i lol when people release a mod and automatically say its more balanced before someone even plays it
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Jazcash
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Joined: 08 Dec 2007, 17:39

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Jazcash »

Reserved first page post in case this Mod gets played.
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1v0ry_k1ng
Posts: 4656
Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

postcount +1

Im instantly skeptical of any ta mod that "Is ba, only rebalanced and betterer !!" because we have about fifty around and they are mostly shite, but the addition TTL sounds interesting
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Otherside wrote:i lol when people release a mod and automatically say its more balanced before someone even plays it
It's common sense. Balance by elementary school methods vs. Balance by complex mathematical equations.

There is nothing automatic about it.
Last edited by Wingflier on 23 Mar 2009, 00:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Otherside
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Joined: 21 Feb 2006, 14:09

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Otherside »

Wingflier wrote:
Otherside wrote:i lol when people release a mod and automatically say its more balanced before someone even plays it
It's common sense. Balance by elementary school methods vs. Balance by complex mathematical equations.

There is nothing automatic about it. It's common sense.
OMG its basic v2.0
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Fine. I'll admit that balance is your own opinion. My mod's balance is only my opinion and it is not necessarily more balanced than BA. I'm sorry for saying that.
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smoth
Posts: 22309
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by smoth »

FFS, let him do whatever he wants, as long as he keeps his mouth shut about other people's work.
[Krogoth86]
Posts: 1176
Joined: 23 Aug 2007, 19:46

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by [Krogoth86] »

I'll give it a try...
Although still you shouldn't call the "guess & check method" rudimentary as it in the end is more powerful than a pure mathematical approach while being waaaay more time consuming and having the danger of "bad" decisions. BTW: Could you finally "release" Tired's formula as afaik it never was really pointed out how it works and his descriptions of it were kinda flawed...
Wingflier wrote:Due to the nature and incredible amounts of work that Supreme Legacy took, I have a feeling that people will start to release fake versions in the near future. Please note that any version of SL not personally released by me is stealing and is NOT official.
Well I can set your mind at ease about this one. Apart from things growing from "hatred" towards the dominating group of BA players there wasn't a real theft behaviour going on among the "non-mainstream" mods...
Wingflier wrote:-Adding 3rd party widgets disabled
This is to discourage/eliminate the unfair or downright broken widgets that are so common in popular mods.
Which method do you use for that btw? I only know of one approach that might actually work in the end but it wasn't finished yet afaik...
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aegis
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Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by aegis »

method for disabling 3rd-party widgets
none of them *really* work :P
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Gota
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Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Gota »

Shhh ;)
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

Well I can set your mind at ease about this one. Apart from things growing from "hatred" towards the dominating group of BA players there wasn't a real theft behaviour going on among the "non-mainstream" mods...
Good :)
BTW: Could you finally "release" Tired's formula as afaik it never was really pointed out how it works and his descriptions of it were kinda flawed...
He made a post about his formula publicly over a year ago. It's on the forums under "basic mod balance".
Which method do you use for that btw? I only know of one approach that might actually work in the end but it wasn't finished yet afaik...
I don't know to be honest. I just took Basic's word for it.

Wing
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TheFatController
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006, 18:46

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by TheFatController »

lol "guessing".. of course.. it must be easy to dismiss other people's hard work as guesswork when you have a flawless formula that takes away the need to test :roll:
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

is there a copy of his formula around btw? im curious how it works
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Pxtl
Posts: 6112
Joined: 23 Oct 2004, 01:43

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Pxtl »

Now, I'm really excited by this mod, but really - experiment and adjust isn't guessing, it's the scientific method. Hypothesis, test hypothesis, conclusion.

Conversely, making up a bunch of rules and expecting things would follow those rules is how we get astrology.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

found the formula;
http://evolutionrts.info/ufmirror/sprin ... lation.rar

It dosnt appear to account for weapon arcs, turret turn rates, minintenstiy, accuracy, AoE, death explosions, weapon guidance, arced vs flat trajectories, wreck value, reload time (and that is VERY VERY important), slope tolerance, self harming, scaling ineffectivity of low health units, acceleration.. I mean I could go on. Its pretty cool that it gives values close to TA values but seriously, all of the above are important factors in the effectivity of a uni and none of them are accounted for. hell, in ca the only real diffrence between the storm and rocko is the storm fires in and arc with a 7 sec reload, and the rocko in a flat trajectory at 3.5 second reload. same dps. totally totally diffrent uses and value in combat.

so yeah, I dont buy the perfect giga balance thing if you havnt modified unit costs to account for these factors
Wingflier
Posts: 130
Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 06:21

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Wingflier »

I never said the equation was perfect. I said it was complex and very good.

Of course if a unit has a special attribute like firing very fast or impact knockback I make it cost more.

AoE IS actually part of the equation btw.

And before you go knocking on how imbalanced it is, you should really come try it.

You fail to realize that using the famed guess and check method, everytime you change a unit, you change it individually of every other unit and thus imbalance the entire game. You have no idea how changing one unit can affect the rest because you have no baseline or reasonable way to compare over 500 units at once.

Having an equation to balance each unit may not be perfect, but it establishes a great amount of consistency. Because each unit is subject to the formula, no unit can be extremely OP or ridiculously stupid like in many mods you see. At the most a unit will be slightly UP or OP at which point you just adjust costs a bit. This is a much more logical and better balance method than just guessing and checking without establishing any mathematical consistency between units.

This is why so many units in BA just aren't worth building at all. Why some units are very UP and some units are very OP.

I don't have the perfect solution to balance. All I am trying to say is that balancing at a college level vs. balancing at an elementary school level just makes more sense to anybody who is not in severe denial.

I know Tired's equation doesn't account for everything but it accounts for enough to make a pretty damn good balance complex within the game.

You can disagree with me if you want. As I know many of you will continue to do. I am not God and just like you I make mistakes. But it is my firm belief that you will find the balance in SL a lot better than in BA. Which is a lot to say because there are 3 races, instead of 2.

Wing
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smoth
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Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by smoth »

*sighs*
Andromeda
Posts: 60
Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 03:59

Re: Supreme Legacy v1.0 Released!

Post by Andromeda »

Based on the two games i played with you earlier:

TLL heavy lightning tower fails, (Plus it has impulse O.o)

You said they cost alot but the people i was playing were able to amass a sizeable force of rainmen/storms, which pwn level two. (not necessarily a flaw but i am not sure if this was desired...)

I would love to see the return of flame towers, they were excellent anti-spam.

The delay between telling the TLL comm to Dgun and the actually firing of the weapon is very high, making it pretty useless against semi-fast units.

You need to fix the TLL logo texture that is on the com/t1 convech/some others.
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