1v1 fighters cant seem to shoot them down, i had 3 of my brawlers meet 4 fighters the fighters were all shot down by the brawlers
I SERIOUSLY doubt it maybe u were fighting peepers? or they were on hold fire? if this really happened post a replay
Fix Brawler Swarm Gayness
Moderator: Moderators
I've got to agree with foe of the bee here.
Brawlers are possibly the least unbalanced of the 2ed level units- they die quickly to flak towers, they are easy prey to fighters, they are very terrain vunerable (Put flaks in front of anything that will cause them to have to climb and you'll have a whole mess of dead brawlers). So what's really broken is the player who gets 100 brawlers sent against him/her (ahh, who am I kidding, him) and hasen't won the game yet. What are you diong to let your opponent build up that many units? Why aren't you harrying them, attacking them, depleting there resources. You should be putting the pressure on so that at MOST the opponent can put together 25-50 brawlers.
But lets say you have been doing that, and your winning, but unbenouced to you they've got a 'secret' brawler army forming while you bash through each layre of there defences- as a worst case scenario you can pick up your commander with an air transport and fly it into the middel of the brawler swarm then detonate (An honest to goodness tactic that was used against me when I had about 500 brawlers in a 4v4 game; and I was loosing, watching each layre of my defences get bashed down saying to myself 'soon I'll hit max units and then I'll show them!'). Since you now know that there going to be critically short on units; you take the loss of your commander and whatever buildings were aroudn him in stride and counterattack for all your worth.
Ultimately it's the same basic story for goliath's and korgoth- if your looking at an 'unstopable' number of them; you've done something wrong, or this is there 'last push' before there resources cap out and there base gets overrun; in which case the desperate measure of sacrificing your commander will win it for you.
Brawlers are possibly the least unbalanced of the 2ed level units- they die quickly to flak towers, they are easy prey to fighters, they are very terrain vunerable (Put flaks in front of anything that will cause them to have to climb and you'll have a whole mess of dead brawlers). So what's really broken is the player who gets 100 brawlers sent against him/her (ahh, who am I kidding, him) and hasen't won the game yet. What are you diong to let your opponent build up that many units? Why aren't you harrying them, attacking them, depleting there resources. You should be putting the pressure on so that at MOST the opponent can put together 25-50 brawlers.
But lets say you have been doing that, and your winning, but unbenouced to you they've got a 'secret' brawler army forming while you bash through each layre of there defences- as a worst case scenario you can pick up your commander with an air transport and fly it into the middel of the brawler swarm then detonate (An honest to goodness tactic that was used against me when I had about 500 brawlers in a 4v4 game; and I was loosing, watching each layre of my defences get bashed down saying to myself 'soon I'll hit max units and then I'll show them!'). Since you now know that there going to be critically short on units; you take the loss of your commander and whatever buildings were aroudn him in stride and counterattack for all your worth.
Ultimately it's the same basic story for goliath's and korgoth- if your looking at an 'unstopable' number of them; you've done something wrong, or this is there 'last push' before there resources cap out and there base gets overrun; in which case the desperate measure of sacrificing your commander will win it for you.
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HellToupee
- Posts: 59
- Joined: 01 May 2005, 01:27
Brawlers dont die quickly to flak towers, 4-5 brawlers make short work of a few flak towers, plus they are slow to build and lvl2 requiring lvl 2 constructors and can just be flown around or just avoided. Also its not late game 400 brawler swarms i find are the problem its early game expansion flak towers cover small areas, are lvl2 slow to build, brawlers can roam at will with only fighters to challange them and they do a poor job at that, you cant simply send out ur offensive units to deal with the problem. Also mobile airdefence is also lacking so ur ground units also get slaughted.
Funny how there's such contradiction between people here who say flakkers are effective or not against brawlers, fighters are effective / not effective against them...
Are you all playing the same game?
In the games I play, a swarm of 20 brawlers easily overcomes the flakkers I can build in the time those brawlers are in the air. They definitely win out against mobile flakkers and fighters.
Remember, you're not sending brawlers against fighters or flakkers or mobile flakkers. You're sending brawlers against moho mines and fusions. By the time the brawlers would be dead, all the enemy's energy and metal are gone.
Are you all playing the same game?
In the games I play, a swarm of 20 brawlers easily overcomes the flakkers I can build in the time those brawlers are in the air. They definitely win out against mobile flakkers and fighters.
Remember, you're not sending brawlers against fighters or flakkers or mobile flakkers. You're sending brawlers against moho mines and fusions. By the time the brawlers would be dead, all the enemy's energy and metal are gone.
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HellToupee
- Posts: 59
- Joined: 01 May 2005, 01:27
it was a while ago they were the lvl2 core fighter, i forget the name, my brawlers where flying home they came up behind managed to damage themselfs somewhat and as they flew past the brawlers shot them down with the guns.Min3mat wrote:1v1 fighters cant seem to shoot them down, i had 3 of my brawlers meet 4 fighters the fighters were all shot down by the brawlers
I SERIOUSLY doubt it maybe u were fighting peepers? or they were on hold fire? if this really happened post a replay
http://www.markusweigand.de/050918-Core ... 0.63b2.sdf
Take a look at how tanelorn plays...
(it was a 4vs4, but one of my (the top team) dropped, so tanelorns team had a starting advantage.
And note: yes, i build a gay aircraft swarm ( i dont say brawlers because i used rapiers, and he gave his units to our team before a single rapier was even launched).
Witness his great buildorder ( 10 solars before any factory is sooo cool)
begging for construction units from teammates (because he didnt bother building ones himself, building mohos off the middle, and doing a preplaned backstapping: he spread his goliaths between the enemy fusions as soon as he built them, he only played to ruin the game for the others).
Also note _how_ this aircraft swarm came to happening: NO attack at all from the bottom team (not even bertas/buzzsaws, goddamit), no airstrikes, not a single weases send to the enemy pyramit to annoy (is it _that_ hard?)
(just in case they would attack on their own, i build l2 aircraft first, there is NO reason not to build l2 aircraft on coreprime....)
Porcing (and 4(!) teams hugging the pyramid without even securing the side) will never win a game, and i only chose aircraft because i didnt want to bother watching the goliath walk down there (as i was wasting 800 metal at some point...).
So a lot of that bitching about Aircraft superiority is simply the fact that they are the fastest and less wait-for-the-damn-thing-to-get-there way to finish off bad players.
I could have build 2 krogs / 10 gollis /20+ sumos per minute, too, and the result wouldnt have looked different.
just dont blame it on those poor gunships
Take a look at how tanelorn plays...
(it was a 4vs4, but one of my (the top team) dropped, so tanelorns team had a starting advantage.
And note: yes, i build a gay aircraft swarm ( i dont say brawlers because i used rapiers, and he gave his units to our team before a single rapier was even launched).
Witness his great buildorder ( 10 solars before any factory is sooo cool)
begging for construction units from teammates (because he didnt bother building ones himself, building mohos off the middle, and doing a preplaned backstapping: he spread his goliaths between the enemy fusions as soon as he built them, he only played to ruin the game for the others).
Also note _how_ this aircraft swarm came to happening: NO attack at all from the bottom team (not even bertas/buzzsaws, goddamit), no airstrikes, not a single weases send to the enemy pyramit to annoy (is it _that_ hard?)
(just in case they would attack on their own, i build l2 aircraft first, there is NO reason not to build l2 aircraft on coreprime....)
Porcing (and 4(!) teams hugging the pyramid without even securing the side) will never win a game, and i only chose aircraft because i didnt want to bother watching the goliath walk down there (as i was wasting 800 metal at some point...).
So a lot of that bitching about Aircraft superiority is simply the fact that they are the fastest and less wait-for-the-damn-thing-to-get-there way to finish off bad players.
I could have build 2 krogs / 10 gollis /20+ sumos per minute, too, and the result wouldnt have looked different.
just dont blame it on those poor gunships
Well you're quite wrong. I saw the massive swarm on the screen and then quit the game. Note how quickly we all died. You can't blame anything on me in that demo. We already lost well before I quit.
You may want to note that a gunship swarm finished off all three of us without help from anything else?
You may want to note that a gunship swarm finished off all three of us without help from anything else?
I have found two effective means of dealing with brawler rushes. Fighters and flak towers. These countermeasures are very limited though. Fighters are very flexible, they can be moved to whereever needed in ample time, BUT they take a long time to destroy the rush. The flak towers are effective only when you have a LOT of the them around THE AREAS YOU WANT TO PROTECT.
In other words, the fighters will thin the rush and eventually destry it in 30 seconds or a minute and Flakkers must be placed EVERYWHERE you want to protect.
Saying that, how do you protect moho mines near your base with these countermeasures? You can't. Its not feasible.
The difference between brawler rushes and tank rushes is that you can bypass defensive lines. You can simply fly through a slightly less Flak defended section of the line and destroy the enemy's resource facilities. There is no way to stop this until you can afford to build flak everywhere.
Yes, you can level a newbie's base with these first or second shot. However a good player using these can effectively widdle another good player's resources down enough to where they become less productive than the attacker. This is most effective in team games where an ally is core making a heavily armored attack force.
The only way this can be balanced out is for the opposing team to do exactly the same thing with brawlers.
I consider an unbalanced unit as one that can be extremely effective by itself and has either no counters, or has prohibitively expensive counters.
People also dont consider that a good player wont just use brawlers, he will also use fighters and transports or other units. This multiplies the effect of these unbalanced units. Just as a bunch of krogoths can own nearly anything. You can stop them with a very expensive and time consuming defence scheme, but why the heck wouldn't a player use other units to counter that scheme while sending in the kbot diety units? I do that and krogoths become even more insanely effective. If they build dragons teeth, throw up some planes to occupy their energy weapons, then fly several air constructors with set reclaim queues over to rapidly remove the teeth while the expensive anti krogoths energy weapons fire at the krogoths and the planes.
Sure the defense was good against a person using ONLY krogoths. The point is that they dont have to use only krogoths. When you use other units to back up the unbalanced units, the true lack of balance is revealed.
I will give an example of another RTS I loved that I eventually stopped playing because of a gross imbalance. An imbalance even worse than the imbalances in TA Spring. The units were not more godly than in XTA. However, there are many more factors to the equation of unit balance. It was the original Command & Conquer. The GDI mammoth tank was pretty tuff, but the main reason it was unbalanced was that it could effectively counter air attacks, tank attacks and troop attacks in every way. YES there was a counter to them, only 1. It was to find a map with a bottleneck just big enough that one could pass through at a time and have 3 NOD laser towers behind it. It was elaborate and expensive. The krogoth is XTA's equivalent to the C&C mammoth tank. The krogoth can effectively counter air, tanks, kbots, hovercraft, anything, even nukes are not an issue. The effect is that there need not be tactics or backup units for them to win.
And for those of you that will call me a whiner, I don't complain about a sumo rush or flash tank rush, why not? They ARE effective, right? Why not those? Well? They can be countered effectively without expensive elaborate defense schemes, just sensible defence, provided your force buildup is adequate.
What's worse about the bralwers, krogoths, and goliaths, is that they can virtually ignore an effective defence and go right for the heart of your economy. This game is based on limitless resources so setting your opponents curve down below yours will often give you the win, unlike StarCraft, where resources have an eventual capped off extraction-rate and they are finite. The dynamic is different, so the effect is different. Slaughtering a base of resource gatherers can give you an edge for a while, but something like that in TA give you a permanent advantage.
I love XTA, its great. It is NOT perfect and we need to acknowledge this and improve it. Why?
Well, it has been my experience that when players first try Spring they are confused with the camera and controls. AFTER the less patient people leave, or people with not enough time to learn the quick-keys, the remaining players find that games primarily are ended by BRAWLERS, GOLIATHS, and KROGOTHS. This is a VERY STRONG indication that these units are not balanced. This causes others to leave Spring. After all, XTA is the default mod and almost all games open in the lobby are XTA. To play a different mod a new player will have to open ports in his router to host a mod that they found, or wait for someone to host a mod. This also requires a bit of patience that many people lack, not just the smacktards either.
I LOVE TA SPRING. It has literally been the 1 game I have been playing for the past few months. It just pains me to not see it prosper as much as it could, and I feel that unit balance in XTA, the default mod, is a major factor in retention of players.
In other words, the fighters will thin the rush and eventually destry it in 30 seconds or a minute and Flakkers must be placed EVERYWHERE you want to protect.
Saying that, how do you protect moho mines near your base with these countermeasures? You can't. Its not feasible.
The difference between brawler rushes and tank rushes is that you can bypass defensive lines. You can simply fly through a slightly less Flak defended section of the line and destroy the enemy's resource facilities. There is no way to stop this until you can afford to build flak everywhere.
Yes, you can level a newbie's base with these first or second shot. However a good player using these can effectively widdle another good player's resources down enough to where they become less productive than the attacker. This is most effective in team games where an ally is core making a heavily armored attack force.
The only way this can be balanced out is for the opposing team to do exactly the same thing with brawlers.
I consider an unbalanced unit as one that can be extremely effective by itself and has either no counters, or has prohibitively expensive counters.
People also dont consider that a good player wont just use brawlers, he will also use fighters and transports or other units. This multiplies the effect of these unbalanced units. Just as a bunch of krogoths can own nearly anything. You can stop them with a very expensive and time consuming defence scheme, but why the heck wouldn't a player use other units to counter that scheme while sending in the kbot diety units? I do that and krogoths become even more insanely effective. If they build dragons teeth, throw up some planes to occupy their energy weapons, then fly several air constructors with set reclaim queues over to rapidly remove the teeth while the expensive anti krogoths energy weapons fire at the krogoths and the planes.
Sure the defense was good against a person using ONLY krogoths. The point is that they dont have to use only krogoths. When you use other units to back up the unbalanced units, the true lack of balance is revealed.
I will give an example of another RTS I loved that I eventually stopped playing because of a gross imbalance. An imbalance even worse than the imbalances in TA Spring. The units were not more godly than in XTA. However, there are many more factors to the equation of unit balance. It was the original Command & Conquer. The GDI mammoth tank was pretty tuff, but the main reason it was unbalanced was that it could effectively counter air attacks, tank attacks and troop attacks in every way. YES there was a counter to them, only 1. It was to find a map with a bottleneck just big enough that one could pass through at a time and have 3 NOD laser towers behind it. It was elaborate and expensive. The krogoth is XTA's equivalent to the C&C mammoth tank. The krogoth can effectively counter air, tanks, kbots, hovercraft, anything, even nukes are not an issue. The effect is that there need not be tactics or backup units for them to win.
And for those of you that will call me a whiner, I don't complain about a sumo rush or flash tank rush, why not? They ARE effective, right? Why not those? Well? They can be countered effectively without expensive elaborate defense schemes, just sensible defence, provided your force buildup is adequate.
What's worse about the bralwers, krogoths, and goliaths, is that they can virtually ignore an effective defence and go right for the heart of your economy. This game is based on limitless resources so setting your opponents curve down below yours will often give you the win, unlike StarCraft, where resources have an eventual capped off extraction-rate and they are finite. The dynamic is different, so the effect is different. Slaughtering a base of resource gatherers can give you an edge for a while, but something like that in TA give you a permanent advantage.
I love XTA, its great. It is NOT perfect and we need to acknowledge this and improve it. Why?
Well, it has been my experience that when players first try Spring they are confused with the camera and controls. AFTER the less patient people leave, or people with not enough time to learn the quick-keys, the remaining players find that games primarily are ended by BRAWLERS, GOLIATHS, and KROGOTHS. This is a VERY STRONG indication that these units are not balanced. This causes others to leave Spring. After all, XTA is the default mod and almost all games open in the lobby are XTA. To play a different mod a new player will have to open ports in his router to host a mod that they found, or wait for someone to host a mod. This also requires a bit of patience that many people lack, not just the smacktards either.
I LOVE TA SPRING. It has literally been the 1 game I have been playing for the past few months. It just pains me to not see it prosper as much as it could, and I feel that unit balance in XTA, the default mod, is a major factor in retention of players.
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DavetheBrave
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 22 Jun 2005, 02:52
It sounds to me like you are just not fast enough.tanelorn wrote:
In the games I play, a swarm of 20 brawlers easily overcomes the flakkers I can build in the time those brawlers are in the air. They definitely win out against mobile flakkers and fighters.
I dont think the real issue with Brawlers is their hp or attack power, but it is their manueverability. I agree with seig that, a skilled player who knows how to attack can bypass your defenses and go right to your economy.
However, before the brawlers come you should have your enemy down. As many others have previously stated, the key to almost any Strategy game is ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. I am not saying that xta is totally balanced, but if you are getting beaten by goliaths, gunships or kroggies it is usually your own fault.
When you lose to certain tactic, dont say "that is so unfair, i should have won!!". Instead, think how you can do better next time.
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FoeOfTheBee
- Posts: 557
- Joined: 12 May 2005, 18:26
OTA had much more effective flakkers, and level 1 AA defense was also more effective. Uberhack set the AA units so they wouldn't attack ground. That helped too.
XTA likes the idea of high hitpoints on level 2 vehicles, but they didn't provide effective means to counter these tough units.
Either decrease Brawler HP or increase the damage AA does to them.
XTA likes the idea of high hitpoints on level 2 vehicles, but they didn't provide effective means to counter these tough units.
Either decrease Brawler HP or increase the damage AA does to them.
Ok this became a long post ....
OTA did not have more effective flakkers than XTA
XTA arm flakker: Damage against Brawler 238,aoe 140, range 700
OTA arm flakker: Damage against Brawler 130,aoe 120, range 700
XTA Brawler: HP 1450
OTA Brawler: HP 920
That said there is serious inbalances in XTA for Spring since XTA was balanced for TA and not Spring. There is as I see it 5 major areas where balance between Spring and TA has changed.
1: New friendly fire rules, I considered it to become a more interesting game when you couldnt fire through friendly units unlike in most other RTS. This causes the most severe inbalances and favour units that are expensive, have short range and uses ballistic weapon paths.
2: Longer engagement ranges, with auto radar targetting and the longer LOS ranges units can start shooting at longer range this obviously favours long range units.
3: Units aims at middle of enemy instead of at the ground below it as in TA. This has reduced the usefullness of DT and FW a lot. Mainly favours LOS firing mobile units while hurting defence a lot.
4: Units with ballistic weapons can now aim properly while moving. In TA the movement speed of the firing unit got added to the shot but the units couldnt compensate for this. This change mainly favours mobile units with ballistic weapons.
5: Aircrafts doesnt clump together as much as in TA. In TA aircrafts could pack themselves infinitly close and you could often damage 40 brawlers with one flakk shot and then they would damage each other with their death explosions when they started dying. In spring they never clumps together that much making them last longer.
Some comments
3 and 4 might seem to compensate each other out in regards to mobile units but a more subtle effect is that the weak stone/scissor/paper relationship that existed in TA of LOS units for skirmish, ballistic to get defence disapears. Instead both type of units can do both jobs.
The biggest loser on 1 is the missile towers. These where the mainstay rear area defence for most TA games but is a lot less common in Spring games. This in turn favours aircrafts.
We will work to fix the imbalances caused by the above and the cascading failures that follows. But I prefer to change too little to changing too much and all time spent on this is timed not spent programming. I suppose we could consider letting some external person do it but then I would want someone that really understand the TA unit system and its complexities and can show that by consistantly beating or at least playing even against me and other SYs on a variety of map types.
OTA did not have more effective flakkers than XTA
XTA arm flakker: Damage against Brawler 238,aoe 140, range 700
OTA arm flakker: Damage against Brawler 130,aoe 120, range 700
XTA Brawler: HP 1450
OTA Brawler: HP 920
That said there is serious inbalances in XTA for Spring since XTA was balanced for TA and not Spring. There is as I see it 5 major areas where balance between Spring and TA has changed.
1: New friendly fire rules, I considered it to become a more interesting game when you couldnt fire through friendly units unlike in most other RTS. This causes the most severe inbalances and favour units that are expensive, have short range and uses ballistic weapon paths.
2: Longer engagement ranges, with auto radar targetting and the longer LOS ranges units can start shooting at longer range this obviously favours long range units.
3: Units aims at middle of enemy instead of at the ground below it as in TA. This has reduced the usefullness of DT and FW a lot. Mainly favours LOS firing mobile units while hurting defence a lot.
4: Units with ballistic weapons can now aim properly while moving. In TA the movement speed of the firing unit got added to the shot but the units couldnt compensate for this. This change mainly favours mobile units with ballistic weapons.
5: Aircrafts doesnt clump together as much as in TA. In TA aircrafts could pack themselves infinitly close and you could often damage 40 brawlers with one flakk shot and then they would damage each other with their death explosions when they started dying. In spring they never clumps together that much making them last longer.
Some comments
3 and 4 might seem to compensate each other out in regards to mobile units but a more subtle effect is that the weak stone/scissor/paper relationship that existed in TA of LOS units for skirmish, ballistic to get defence disapears. Instead both type of units can do both jobs.
The biggest loser on 1 is the missile towers. These where the mainstay rear area defence for most TA games but is a lot less common in Spring games. This in turn favours aircrafts.
We will work to fix the imbalances caused by the above and the cascading failures that follows. But I prefer to change too little to changing too much and all time spent on this is timed not spent programming. I suppose we could consider letting some external person do it but then I would want someone that really understand the TA unit system and its complexities and can show that by consistantly beating or at least playing even against me and other SYs on a variety of map types.
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Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
... Which won't really happen, because the only people who could beat you were the ones who were really good at OTA (the gnugs and such); and most of the people who are really good at OTA don't like the changes in XTA, or don't want to learn the new balance of XTA...I suppose we could consider letting some external person do it but then I would want someone that really understand the TA unit system and its complexities and can show that by consistantly beating or at least playing even against me and other SYs on a variety of map types.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Well... XTA is a unit based mod, not a defence based mod. There are several units in XTA which can just blast through defences, and the best way to counter them is almost always another unit (except in the case of kroggies where there is just no counter at all). You can't expect to win every game with porcer stratigies in XTA, you need to play highly offencive alot of the time. Make early brawlers too costly to rush for your opponents, make late brawlers ineffective with fighters, make krogies before your enemy can. The mod is very economy dependant and entirely controlled by the late game superunits.
UH is not. Tactics work much better in UH because even the krogies you can't just run in and expect to win against large forces. You can't push forces into a base still littered with thier respective counters, flak kill brawlies and must therefore be killed by ground units first. Ground units get killed by HLTs and thus lazers must be killed by artillery first. Out of base artillery don't get killed by much in base (maby berthas or something if you have enough of them) but are very weak to both ground forces and brawlies. UH is about attacking the weakpoint of your opponents base, not finding the weakpoint to your opponent's attack. In XTA every base is one giant weakpoint and the player who successfully pushes the most offencive power out the fastest nearly always wins.
The focus of the two mods is entirely different but both are compleatly valid. If you don't like one host the other, don't ruin other people's games in protest. Right now you have options, but if XTA changes to be like UH then the game I like better goes away. Why shouldn't I have options as well?
I've seeen about a million XTA brawlie rushes get smashed by fighters. Infact it happens every game I have played so far. If your build doesn't include for a fighter brawlie defence then you are doing something wrong.
UH is not. Tactics work much better in UH because even the krogies you can't just run in and expect to win against large forces. You can't push forces into a base still littered with thier respective counters, flak kill brawlies and must therefore be killed by ground units first. Ground units get killed by HLTs and thus lazers must be killed by artillery first. Out of base artillery don't get killed by much in base (maby berthas or something if you have enough of them) but are very weak to both ground forces and brawlies. UH is about attacking the weakpoint of your opponents base, not finding the weakpoint to your opponent's attack. In XTA every base is one giant weakpoint and the player who successfully pushes the most offencive power out the fastest nearly always wins.
The focus of the two mods is entirely different but both are compleatly valid. If you don't like one host the other, don't ruin other people's games in protest. Right now you have options, but if XTA changes to be like UH then the game I like better goes away. Why shouldn't I have options as well?
I've seeen about a million XTA brawlie rushes get smashed by fighters. Infact it happens every game I have played so far. If your build doesn't include for a fighter brawlie defence then you are doing something wrong.
Yeah, i noticed those "no aircraft" types, too.
In the original TA manual was written that one should use combined arm...
If you have a team, at least one player HAS to build fighters and scout planes. Not doing so just gives the whole sky to the enemy. The result can be seen in desert storm or brawler rush.
Similar in a 1vs1: If its an air-map (like mountain siege), you should of course have fighters or your own gunships.
If its not, you may for example go tank and he goes air... Now the question is: if he sends a swarm of brawlers, what were your tanks doing? They should be in (or before) his base right then). If they were standing in your base waiting for an attack, or you didnt build them because you want a fusion first, or you build that lone intimitator, then dont complain....
In the original TA manual was written that one should use combined arm...
If you have a team, at least one player HAS to build fighters and scout planes. Not doing so just gives the whole sky to the enemy. The result can be seen in desert storm or brawler rush.
Similar in a 1vs1: If its an air-map (like mountain siege), you should of course have fighters or your own gunships.
If its not, you may for example go tank and he goes air... Now the question is: if he sends a swarm of brawlers, what were your tanks doing? They should be in (or before) his base right then). If they were standing in your base waiting for an attack, or you didnt build them because you want a fusion first, or you build that lone intimitator, then dont complain....
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
If we're talking about the same brawlie swarms I've been seeing your tanks are going to be doing about as much sitting in your base as they would be pushing on your opponents base. Brawlies DECIMATE ground units with or without mobile anti air support. The ONLY option to counter gunships is fighters (or other gunships but they will take alot longer in the killing of thier opponents)IMSabbel wrote:Yeah, i noticed those "no aircraft" types, too.
In the original TA manual was written that one should use combined arm...
If you have a team, at least one player HAS to build fighters and scout planes. Not doing so just gives the whole sky to the enemy. The result can be seen in desert storm or brawler rush.
Similar in a 1vs1: If its an air-map (like mountain siege), you should of course have fighters or your own gunships.
If its not, you may for example go tank and he goes air... Now the question is: if he sends a swarm of brawlers, what were your tanks doing? They should be in (or before) his base right then). If they were standing in your base waiting for an attack, or you didnt build them because you want a fusion first, or you build that lone intimitator, then dont complain....
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maverick256
- Posts: 115
- Joined: 21 Sep 2004, 19:41
I haven't been playing Spring much, but I know that in TA, surrounding your vital structures (fusions, mohos, whatever) with fortification walls and dragon's teeth are very effective against gunships, especially brawlers, as their bullets usually just hit the walls. I assume such is not the case in spring?