Fix Brawler Swarm Gayness

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 13 Sep 2005, 06:02

Good god. This is all you need to win any game. Just make a ton of Brawlers and you win.

The cost of Brawlers and the amount of firepower it takes to kill them makes them the ultimate.

Mobile Flakkers cost too much and you need a million of them. They are all dead before you can stop the swarm. It is impossible to defend your forces against brawlers away from your base.

Build a million flakkers in your base, sure, but the cost per flakker vs the cost of Brawlers... you still lose.

Fighters? AHAHAHAH They are designed to shoot down other planes, but they can't hurt brawlers! It takes like 10 passes to do much damage, by that time the brawlers are done and flying back to base.

Good god. Thanks XTA for making a game where you can win just by making units and not caring about strategy or tactics.

Thanks XTA for the unstoppable Goliath rush, the Brawler swarm, and Krogoths. OTA was fair and balanced. XTA thinks there should be easy to make armies that are impossible to stop.

And since nobody will join a game of OTA, Shiny TA, etc., we're stuck with this unbalanced crap.

Well I have a new strategy. If you can't beat em, join em. I'll use the same lame exploit tactics as everyone else. And forget about tactics or strategy or anything else that makes RTS games fun. Just mass produce brawlers or goliaths.

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » 13 Sep 2005, 06:13

While it is obvious that some units in XTA are unbalanced, critisism of that level is not very nice. Brawlers/Goliaths/Sumos/Krogoths/Whatever are unbalanced at times, and can seem unstopable (there are ways, but your usually dead before you can implement these ways), XTA is not crap. There are many good points to it. If you think these are so unfair and lame and crap, just disable them in your games. If you think you can do better than XTA, go ahead. Make a new mod. Otherwise, Shut up and stop critisising people. There are already plenty of threads about this. If ou want to whine about it, go whine in them. And have you ever thought that mabey people dont join OTA games cause they like XTA better?

FizWizz · Post by **FizWizz** » 13 Sep 2005, 06:19

Tanelorn wrote:Well I have a new strategy. If you can't beat em, join em. I'll use the same lame exploit tactics as everyone else

nooo!!!! Do not turn to the dark side! the UH can save you!

Okay, that was a blatant plug, sorry. Seriously though, I too have felt the crushing waves of Brawlers roll right over me and it disappointed me that my adversary's victory plans came down to that. It almost disappointed me as much as the fact that this is found what is billed as a 'balancing' mod. *sigh*

Maelstrom wrote:And have you ever thought that mabey people dont join OTA games cause they like XTA better?

Oh yeah, that's got to be it... The fact that XTA comes with Spring by default probably has nothing to do with it!

Maybe I'm wrong though, who knows? Maybe someone can enlighten me about Brawler defenses that work? Defenses, mind you, that don't start with "Kro..." and end with "...goths"

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » 13 Sep 2005, 07:08

I never said that things were balanced, i was just saying that what tanelorn said was a bit harsh and uncalled for. There is plent of threads saying that brawlers/golies are unfair, so go complain in those. And I was just hoping that no one would point out that XTA came with it. Damn you FizWizz! DAMN YOU!

tanelorn · Post by **tanelorn** » 13 Sep 2005, 07:13

Well I tried with Rapiers and they die quickly. So I am assuming there is an armor level bug with Brawlers. If not, XTA purposely made a balance mistake. Among others.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 13 Sep 2005, 08:26

Brawlies die pretty frigging fast to L2 fighters. Considering that they are also the only really effective counter for a massive goli rush I must say that I would rather fight brawlies with fighters then goli with brawlies. With just an advanced air plant pushing out constant fighters and a keen eye on the radar you can take out most brawlie rushes with only minor in base casualties, and absolutly no loss to your overall fighter numbers. consider what would happen if your opponent pushed your brawlie rush base with a dozen goli's and then backed them up with fighters as soon as your brawlies rushed in for defence. Without ALOT of time to put constant damage on the goli's the brawlers wouldn't be able to kill them, and a group of goli no where near your base defences that have fighters rain death on your brawlies as soon as you push them in don't take damage for ALOT of time.

TA 3D · Post by **TA 3D** » 13 Sep 2005, 08:38

Sorry guys but i'm going to have to go with tanelorn on this one. I really don't like "balancing mods" like UH, XTA.. I love unit packs and total conversions like (esspecially, and can live with the minor tweakings done in TAUCP) TAUCP, World Domination, SWTA, soon to be Warhammer TA, Battle Tech(MechWars, haven't played it, but it looks good.), and when finished Lego TA.

And if I have any free time i'm up for some OTA!

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 13 Sep 2005, 10:34

There was never a single, all-dominating unit in TA. It was quite nicely balanced; balancing mods just never made sense to me. I understand mods that try and change the gameplay to something different, but to me, balancing mods are trying to fix something that was never really broke.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 13 Sep 2005, 10:39

Well in OTA i always had the feeling that level 2 units were almost useless..
In XTA i think they made Level 2 way to powerfull and thereby, when reaching level 2, level 1 units are almost useless. personal i think UH is a great intermediate (also isn't perfect).

but owh well just my opinion

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 13 Sep 2005, 11:23

im always up for a some OTA but as ppl have said vamps ANNIHILATE brawlers! withoutt losses!!!

FolCan · Post by **FolCan** » 13 Sep 2005, 11:29

Or just send a bunch of goliaths to his base before he can build a brawler swarm

SinbadEV · Post by **SinbadEV** » 13 Sep 2005, 12:42

Brawler swarms are even more effective in OTA, next time I see an open game of OTA I'll show you

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 13 Sep 2005, 12:48

Brawler have too much HP imo...or the flakker should make more spash damage.

I have never made a game with Bomber.Why? Because Brawler a so good...

I think goliath is less overpowered than gollies.
(Brawler cost <400 metal, so for 1 golli, you have 10 brawler....they are fast and go through your defance and eat your comm with ease)

smartie · Post by **smartie** » 13 Sep 2005, 13:59

Brawlers are bad, but with enough lvl 2 fighters you can defend yourself pretty well. A bunch of fighters patrolling back and forth across your base will add a lot of fire power wherever you are attacked. Using fighters alone isn't suficient for defense because the brawlers would kill half your base before being shot down if you tried that. The idea is you keep adding to your fighter swarm (which the brawlers have no means to kill) as the game goes along and start intercepting them outside of your base. This trick really only works late in the game thou. Brawlers are much worse earlier on when you are still running off of mini fusions.

Krogoths on the other hand are the ultimate unbalenced unit. Once someone gets their economy up to build one krogoth after another there isn't any way to defeat them. (granted they don't do something stupid like leave the back of their base wide open) Nukes don't stop a krogoth. I tried that once and spent more energy building the damn weak ass nukes that xta has than he did building his krogoth. Brawler swarms get blasted out of the air by the cannons he has on his arms and bombers are just too slow and weak to be effective. You can't paralize a krogoth, and stunner missiles don't work either because they got changed to some weird cruse missile mini-nuke thing for xta. The vulcan cannon also got neutered for xta which is really too bad bacause it was so cool in total annihilation. Big Bertha's aren't at all pratical even if you get it's experience way up and have it firing from a safe position. Bertha's just can't deal out the damage you need to bring down a krogoth, even if you have several of them all with super accuracy. Mine fields seem to work pretty well especially considering the costs, but once the first couple of guys have walked through and cleared a path out there really isn't any way to get back in to lay more mines for them when you have krogoths constantly advancing and damaged ones retreating. Any ground force the arm has is useless against a krogoth. Penetrators may get a shot or two off before they blasted by the krogoth's long range laser, and bulldogs don't have a weapon to use against a krogoth. Snipers have the same problem as the penetrators. Using farks to resurrect dead krogoth corpses doesn't really work as a strategy either. It takes a long time to resurrect and then fully heal a krogoth even if you are using 20 farks. What's probably going to happen is the next krogoth following shortly behind the guy you're trying to resurrect is going to blast all your farks to hell before they can do anything. The only weapon that's useful against a krogoth (other than another krogoth) is the annihilator. The problem with the annihilator defense is krogoths have enough hitpoints and range that they can trash quite a few of your defenses before they finally go down. When someone is putting a lot of resources into building krogoths you don't have enough time to rebuild your smashed defenses before the next wave arrives.

IMSabbel · Post by **IMSabbel** » 13 Sep 2005, 13:59

I guess it depends.

On metal maps, its not that bad.
But on low metal maps, with the huge metal costs of flaks, and the cheap one of brawlers, the only way to stop them is going for mass hawks...

Doomweaver · Post by **Doomweaver** » 13 Sep 2005, 14:11

I think the problem with Brawlers isn't that they are too good, but rather that they are too easy to use. A n00b with a big brawler army can annihilate a player almost as effectively as an elite player.

For this reason, I think they should be a little worse. But all that mumbo-jumbo about brawlers being rediculous is a serious overstatement. Sure, they can take a tad too much pounding, to be fair, but it's really not as bad as you've made out.

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 13 Sep 2005, 14:34

The thing is TA allow a lot of different style of game.

under 20 min, under 1h, under 3h etc....

And it seem that if we modify something, it can be overpowered for 20min games and underpowered for 3h games...

It's perhaps normal that we don't find balance wich fit to everybody.

e: as doomweaver said, brawler are easy to use, they don't give wreck if your attack fail, so, you can't have their metal nor ressurect them. That's why I prefer being attacked wich gollies.

aGorm · Post by **aGorm** » 13 Sep 2005, 15:09

Anyone that thinks Brawlers are to hard to stop.... Why? IF someone sends 50 Brawlers at you, sure they will be a bugger to take down, especialy if you dont know there coming. But the question is, Why dont you know there coming? If everyone does it and it works, then you should be prepered. Personly last time someone tryed i had just as many lvl2 fighters, which incandenly in those sort of numbers screw brallers over especialy if the brawlers are attacking your base wich already should have air defence.
i suspect the complaners are the people that dont move fast enough to stop them. They play to there own agenda and think if something comes along i'll just quickly build the unit that can counter it. Thats imposible against a Brawlers storm however, just like its imposssible against Gollie and Krogies.
The simple message is Think ahead. He's gonna do that so build for it now, not when it happens!

aGorm

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 13 Sep 2005, 16:28

The things is : I know I'll be attack by brawler so I build massive AA... but while I'm doing that, I don't have too much unit to attack my ennemi, and I cannot expand myself. So I must porc, and finnaly loose :)

But I should try once to make mass brawler, perhaps I will learn how to stop them like that :)

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 13 Sep 2005, 16:29

OMFG, Why dont you just make a treadh and sticky it.
'' I THINK XTA IS UNBALANCED BECUASE'' and everyone can complain in there.

Okay, so XTA has overpowerd units, while OTA has underpowerd units.

The problem with XTA is that overpowerd units are the only one used... so it's a much bigger problem.
BUT underpowerd units are a waste of space and good units. If unit exsists, it exsists for a purpose. If there if no purpose with the unit, it shouldt be there. Esay as that.

Okay, if someone more want's to complain, make an ''overall naging on XTA treadh'' or something.

Or just E-mail the SY's, it's not a crime you know=/

Spring RTS Engine

Fix Brawler Swarm Gayness

Fix Brawler Swarm Gayness