Mods question

[Pressure Line]

A Mod's popularity is not based on the amount of people playing it. Such a radical statement disgusts me, for reasons set forth by AF.

(I agree with Smoth on this issue.)

technically a mods popularity is entirely based on how many people play it the idea that because something gets a lot of playtime makes it better than something that doesnt is somewhat preposterous. 'btter is so subjective anyway, if i am able to find 1 game a day of (for ex) Gundam, and each game that i play is a bucketload of fun. and i find 10 games of BA, and every game gets ruined by fail allies and smurfs. care to have a guess at which game i am going to consider better?

tl;dr popular != better

[Hoi]

It's all about the graphics.

in a certain way, if i give you an old pc game from like 1990 or even before that the graphics would be that bad that its really a big part of how the game is rated, this is still going on but the ta models are on a level that they arnt great (for 2008) but not really bad, they are accepted, its like a wii the graphics are alot worse than the 360 and ps3, but nobody complains about it becaus the wii isnt made to have uber graphics

An example being Noize refusing to use new better models because he does not want to have high poly models next to 1997 rubbish.

yep, if you have some good units and bad ones people will say why are those units bad?

tl;dr

ehm?

[smoth]

tl;dr

ehm?

that means too long didn't read

[Caydr]

I should rephrase, as you're misunderstanding me. I'm so easy to misunderstand. It's not your fault, it's mine. Every night I pray I'll learn CHR but instead my DEX keeps getting boosted. I have to go redo my hair and cut myself.

Ok I'm back. My reasoning goes like this:

If something is "high quality", people like it. If people like something, they do it. Therefore, if people play a mod, they enjoy it, as people will not of their own free will do something they do not want to do. And so I must draw the conclusion that if something is played a lot, it must be of greater quality than something which is not played as much, or at all.

I measure "quality" as how much people enjoy something or how well it performs. Quality is a relative term, and if you call something high or low quality you are comparing it to its peers. If people enjoy something, they'll do it. Therefore, if people enjoy something, it is an inescapable conclusion that it is a quality product at least in a relative sense. For instance, this bag of glass the Korx sold me, I've determined it was a product of poor quality as I've been defecating nothing but blood for days and it has done NOTHING for my acne.

AA/BA, for instance. Not a particularly high-quality product in all areas when compared to a modern high-quality commercially-released game, but people seem to like it more than XTA. However, before AA came out everyone played XTA, since the alternative was one of a dozen broken straight ports of rev31.gp3.

Saying that people don't play something because it's not advertised enough or it "can't reach critical mass" or it's too hard to learn, these might be true, but if the product was of sufficiently high quality people would play it.

If, in the case of E&E or Nanoblobs, a mod is of lower quality because of the unavoidable lack of experience of the modder and a far lesser amount of time to work on something (AA is many years old and goes back long before Spring), it speaks nothing of the modder except that they are learning and should be commended.

You and I don't get to use that excuse since AA is ancient and Gundam moreso. If I can make AA popular and keep people happy for as long as I did, there's no reason you couldn't. If a mod's not fun, it's just not fun. Are you blaming everyone here for not playing it? Everyone else is the reason? What does it speak of your skill compared to mine if the best you can come up with in your own defense is "it's everyone else's fault for not playing it"?

The reason non-TA mods fail is simple: They aren't mature enough projects given time to develop, or their developers are doing something wrong. I hear a lot of people talking about PURE for instance, I have only a basic understanding of what it is but they seem to like where it's going. Here's an example of a mod made by someone who's learned the necessary skills through trial and error and is making something by learning what works and using that. When it comes out, people will play it, I'm certain of that.

So I'll say it again: Non-TA mods do not fail because they aren't TA, they fail because they aren't mature or their developers are doing something wrong. You can't fairly compare AA, with years and years of development, to E&E or Nanoblobs, or most any other mod that's been released, because I have years of experience with modding TA and AA's been around for ages. E&E, given another 6 years of development to put it on par with how long AA's been worked on, would surely be a real competitor to AA/BA instead of being unplayed (unfortunately, since it has good ideas). Same for almost any other mod.

And for my final and most important point, I think everyone's responses to my original questions are proving something, which is that graphics, while important, are second to gameplay and enjoyment. The only knowledge you have of GEM is a handful of pre-alpha screenshots from over a year ago, and from this you're certain it's trash. Try taking the OTA AA rev31.gp3 file and do a straight port, or better yet just download the earliest available version of AASpring off Sourceforge. It's unplayable. I built that unworking mess into a working mod that everyone here enjoyed while it lasted. That is my skill. Show me yours.

[Caydr]

To shorten that severely and probably unintentionally make it offensive in the process (read the tldr for better details):

Quality is a direct reflection of how many people enjoy something, since there is no other valid measurement. Don't use the "intellectual" argument, it's nonsense, smart people can enjoy dumb things and dumb people can enjoy smart things. Saying a mod isn't popular because nobody plays it isn't an argument, it's a statement. Make a mod enjoyable and easy to learn and people will play it. If you want to attract the "elite" people who are too good for TA/BA, go advertise at a D&D convention or something, rather than putting the blame on everyone but yourself for not playing.

Non-TA mods are unpopular because they haven't been given a chance to mature, or else their developer is doing something wrong.

The argument for "GEM is fail":
-Those pre-alpha screenshots you posted over a year ago marked with such slogans as "placeholder" or "WIP" are decisive evidence that Cydr doesn't know how to mod. Nevermind the fact that there is real work and skill involved in just porting OTA, let alone a mod with more than double the units. Since graphics are more important than gameplay, the screencaps overrule a carefully-planned working game design developed by a guy who's been modding for almost half his breathing life. Also, let's assume that Crayd has never used photoshop before and can't make real non-placeholder textures, can't draw, nor could he possibly learn to do so in the year that's gone by.

edit: OK, here you go guys, this is what Smoth thinks is a final texture job, the very best I can do:

PLACEHOLDER FROM 2006 - PLACEHOLDER FROM 2006

PLACEHOLDER FROM 2006 - PLACEHOLDER FROM 2006

Give me a break. It's obviously a placeholder, ANYONE can see that. No fool no matter how stupid would post that and expect people to think it was good-looking. I would think that nobody could imagine this was a final texture job, either, but somehow I'm mistaken.

[Pressure Line]

To shorten that severely and probably unintentionally make it offensive in the process (read the tldr for better details):

the original was offensive enough.

ill give you a tl:dr of what happens when you do get a bunch of *A players to try a non-*A game.

they players try to play it as if it is their favorite *A mod. then comes fail, lose, and bawwing.

evidence: the first few public games of the s44 lite release [yeah it was a bit buggy, and somewhat incomplete] id manage to round up a few interested players, they would then proceed to use failstrategies like ringing their base in DTs, build nothing but MG infantry, 'techin to tiger' [arguably these tactics will also fail in BA, but whatever]

id then effectively use a combination of spotters, arty, vehicles, flanking and infantry [combined arms and clever tactics? no wai!] and thrash them soundly. then would begin the bawwing, and suggestions that it be balanced more like BA (or whatever) "omg thats so unfair! arty shouldnt be able to reach halfway across a relatively small map amd decimate my infantry and plywood buildings!" "uhh thats what arty is for...." "imo it should play more like ba, i just want to play around with tanks and cool shit"

tldr round two: people suck at adapting, even if the game looks completely different, the mindset appears to be "i can play it through the same lobby as BA, so it must play like BA"

[smoth]

Gameplay being more important the graphics is a giant cup of no shit but you should also give the graphics work. Simply put as a mod developer you know less then your players. While you are doing the work, your players are ripping aa apart and trying to min max this or that to victory. This results in players having a good solid grasp of the actual balance while you as a developer were testing within your intended design parameters.

So while they are playing and giving feedback you can do graphics work and balance changes. Which is why I think that graphics can be addressed. As a content developer you spend most of your time executing the project and not getting to play it as much. Player feedback can do a lot of your balance leg work, IIRC that was what you were doing anyway. So while they are testing for you, why not use the time to spruce up the game?

I did this with gundam, many of the units are in game as 3dos while all new units are s3os, that is because I wanted to get core gameplay in and while people are actively testing that I can work out the graphics. The reason I get so pushy about graphics is that you and the ta modding crowd have had time to start on that. Most of the work done though is on the text files and past tweaking a few numbers or fixing a script here or there little is done.

I have been modding since 96 when duke nukem came out, I started reading the dukec then realized I could change parts of it. I only released something in 98. Which is when you started in TA. So blah blah we all have experience.

Fact of the matter is people play gundam, sure it has a small amount of people but considering that up until recently I refused to even mention the project elsewhere. Gundam has players now they are a small group and if they had more people to play with the games would be more regular but I have not started advertising still.

I really appreciate the civil reply, if you are really interested in discussing these ideas I am more then willing to chat with you like this. I hate all the fighting.

*edit* because it was a bit unclear, I was typing it while getting ready for work so some sentences needed clarification.*edit*

[Day]

spring players suck

[Machiosabre]

To shorten that severely and probably unintentionally make it offensive in the process (read the tldr for better details):

the original was offensive enough.

ill give you a tl:dr of what happens when you do get a bunch of *A players to try a non-*A game.

they players try to play it as if it is their favorite *A mod. then comes fail, lose, and bawwing.

evidence: the first few public games of the s44 lite release [yeah it was a bit buggy, and somewhat incomplete] id manage to round up a few interested players, they would then proceed to use failstrategies like ringing their base in DTs, build nothing but MG infantry, 'techin to tiger' [arguably these tactics will also fail in BA, but whatever]

id then effectively use a combination of spotters, arty, vehicles, flanking and infantry [combined arms and clever tactics? no wai!] and thrash them soundly. then would begin the bawwing, and suggestions that it be balanced more like BA (or whatever) "omg thats so unfair! arty shouldnt be able to reach halfway across a relatively small map amd decimate my infantry and plywood buildings!" "uhh thats what arty is for...." "imo it should play more like ba, i just want to play around with tanks and cool shit"

tldr round two: people suck at adapting, even if the game looks completely different, the mindset appears to be "i can play it through the same lobby as BA, so it must play like BA"

I also think we need a community more skilled in prescience, can't even play a strategy game right the first time they try it! pfft!

Also luring people into new mods and then trashing them is not the best plan to get players.

[Forboding Angel]

Aesthetics are a matter of opinion while I do think it is improved, I have said several times that I do not feel it is what I would considered well done. No offense meant but I do not feel it is near professional standards yet.

*edits*
While this may seem somewhat harsh, and maybe 3-4 years ago I would have said it looks good, I do not want to give you a dishonest opinion. Of the current spring projects, I feel that the game art's professional appearances would rank as such: S44, Starwars, Gundam, Pure, Eternal conflict.

While I do know that you are trying for a unique style it is still very uncontrolled and quite unfinished. Both geometrically and texturally I do not feel that EVO is yet what I would consider very professional looking. I again wish to repeat, this is not meant as disrespect as much my attempt to be truly honest. You know I would not lie to you one way or the other. I do not ever want to let personal opinion over-ride the way I really should critique the works.

I think the "Unique" Style (the old textureing) fell off the wagon a long time ago. It just wasn't viable. Finally I just gave up and did what I could. As far as the unit design, I decided some time ago that I didn't want commonality. In EE it made perfect sense, but I wanted something that was more fantastic than realistic because if you are in a fantasy world, you can do all sorts of neat stuff whether it makes sense from a realistic POV or not.

TBH, if the models and textures were up to snuff then it would really be something. It's not like they look bad now... I for one really like the look. It's completely unrealistic and shiny, but in some ways that is the point, however, that said, to be taken "seriously" by anyone other than players, the models and textures (meh, tbh could prolly just get away with re-textures) would need a revamp (again... for the 6th time...).

The thing people have to realize is, in an RTS you need a lot of content and you need it yesterday so that you can work on your actual game design. ATM Evo is pretty much perfectly balanced, it looks damn good in the way of cegs, effects, and explosions and such. The only thing that is really lacking are the units themselves. The resource system is utter win (thank you lurker) and a bunch of other virtues, however, if you had been there for the entire process, you would find that I generally always cater to the lowest common denominator (or what I consider to be), and that denominator gets my full attention for a while until I am satisfied (and if not satisfied, at least sated).

Smoth, if you pay attention you would realize that I have build evo very much like you built gundam, but in much smaller steps (I'm talking overall here, not everything specifically). For example, gundam was originally 3do's. You improved the 3do's time and time again, then went to s3o's, and even still redo some of them. Same concept on this side of the fence, only thing is, I never got the chance to naturally progress with features and technology like you did. I kinda had to try to learn everything at once, which worked marginally well.

Meh. I derailed the thread. Didn't really look like it was going anywhere promising anyway.

[smoth]

you are responding to a post almost a month old... 21 days ago... jesus.

[Pressure Line]

I also think we need a community more skilled in prescience, can't even play a strategy game right the first time they try it! pfft!

Also luring people into new mods and then trashing them is not the best plan to get players.

if you are playing a fun game vs a total noob in BA, and their chosen strategy for the game is "failporc & tech2krog" wouldnt you rather show them that they are doin it rong then screw around for an hour letting them think that they have got it sussed? also, i was getting irritated with his constant stream of drivel during the game

[[XIII]Roxas]

The problem with your arguement, Caydr, is that not every player looks for the same experience in a game. Some simply play for the nostalgic value, of playing OTA in 3-D. These people don't want to wait around for a game, so they naturally download the most common OTA modification. According to their previous experiences, this is AA or it's derivatives.

Others, a minority of the community, play to see what is out there, to be competetive. A fraction of THESE members are those dedicated to Non-OTA content mods. It all comes down to the overwhelming preference of a player to use what they know, instead of trying something new.

[Machiosabre]

I also think we need a community more skilled in prescience, can't even play a strategy game right the first time they try it! pfft!

Also luring people into new mods and then trashing them is not the best plan to get players.

if you are playing a fun game vs a total noob in BA, and their chosen strategy for the game is "failporc & tech2krog" wouldnt you rather show them that they are doin it rong then screw around for an hour letting them think that they have got it sussed? also, i was getting irritated with his constant stream of drivel during the game

I just think its a big step from not imagining that people who play a certain RTS will take their style of play into another to giving up and saying the whole community is a giant idiot.

so you failed to get some guys to like a mod and some guy was probably being a dick, big deal.

[Pressure Line]

if you played TA, then played Starcraft, you wouldnt expect them to play the same.

same with Spring engine games. just because they use a common lobby does not make them the same. some people are unable to grasp that concept. *shrug*

[Machiosabre]

I might not expect them to be the same, but I will try the same things at first, how can I know better?

how many CA games do you think a BA players needs to stop spamming flash? cause it certainly isn't zero.

other games don't have flash, yeah, but "tech to tiger" is the same idea.

[clericvash]

Bring back AA and make it stupidly awesome.

[Das Bruce]

Ok caydr, if you're still reading this...

I started playing AA back in 4.2, that's a long damn time, and there was a time when I could believe you weren't like this, but it's taking a lot of effort to give you just a little benefit of doubt after what you've done, anyway, you're gonna have to post some pics and or info. I know you've got it, you've shown me pics of units and design docs, why don't you just post something?! I think that's most peoples main problem, you have for the most part been all talk, and it's not a hard problem to fix, if you've been telling the truth.

Redeem some grace dude.

[Hoi]

Seems caydr disappeared and his mod is dead?

[KDR_11k]

Seems caydr disappeared and his mod is dead?

You make that sound like an unexpected outcome.