Hovers are op? Discussion (BA)

[[Krogoth86]]

Every tech tree has atleast one mobile aa solution, scout boats for sea, aa hovers , airlab+fighters second, and jethro/samson for land

Although to be true the Samson / Slasher more or less only has its AA as nifty feature just like the Banisher as its just an artillery unit with enough sight range to have visuals on the enemy and so have non-missing rockets. A design decision I never really understood - it's the only of all the T1 guided rocket units with the ability to attack (even mobile) ground forces giving the dedicated artillery a tough competition and a big sight distance which lets it outclass the artillery as they would keep on missing...

I think this is also a point which makes K-Bots (besides all that stats only discussion and the lack of amphibic units) inferior as they have neither a dedicated artillery nor such a Anti-Air-And-Ground-Rocket-Unit...

I mean, if you can use hovers instead of ships, why build ships? Hovers can do more than ships, and are almost as good.

Well I think you underrate ships here. They pretty much are on par with hovers at T1 and have the ability to tech up where they just pwn hovers. With that said ships have sort of a long-time advantage because if you control the sea you don't have to sweep the coasts with your ships - you probably only have to push the lines where the enemies' fighters can patrol as far back as possible. That way they get pretty vulnerable to bombers which already should turn the tide before you start cleansing the beaches...

Now, would it be nicer if there were an L1 SAM amphib tank? Obviously. Re-purposing the L1 SAM kbot is a little odd. But on the other hand, it's generally considered a rather useless unit.

Well 1st you should be more clear when talking about units being "amphibic" because in most cases this means having em walk on the ground. You probably are talking about a Pelican floating behaviour...

2nd point is that I dislike that idea of floating T1 AA tanks/K-Bots. The reason for this is that there is Hover-AA for this. You now might show up the costs etc. but that's the point. There is and should be no lab that spits out units for every thinkable situation! If such a lab existed you would have to merge all labs into a single one because the others would become sort of useless then. If I can build a T1 Vehicle Lab that gives me good tanks, amphibic tanks, artillery and floating AA-tanks why building those crappy K-Bots at all?

2) it's weird. A super-cheap factory buildable by boats, hovers, and amphicons is kinda strange. It'd also be used by hovers to get L1 subs to handle their demolitions of underwater targets.

Well some lines up you complained about ships being inferior compared to hovers and now you suggest something that lets hovers get subs the cheap way and makes the decision to go for a sea lab even worse?!

You could take back this value by making it have a weak buildpower, thus making it require assistance to properly crank out your force.

Is there a lab that doesn't build slow like hell on its own in BA?

[pintle]

T1 sea transport...

[Sleksa]

Getting a way for ships to invade the land? Well, with a ship, you've a few options:

proof of noob. Attacking from sea to land used to be highly op, meaning that whoever controlled sea in deltasiege usually won the game.

But let's look at (1). You build an amphib lab near the enemy coast. You face a few problems - first, the lab is kinda expensive. Almost as much as a hovercraft platform, which is more versatile. Which brings us back to (3)

Amphib lab is 800 metal IIRC, which is like 100 more metal than vehicle plant. its not that expensive as you think it is.

Second, if you invade, and he has a decent fighter-screen (which might be why you didn't go air) or even worse, some gunships, then your troops are dead the moment they get out of range of your oh-so-fragile skeeters (which, in turn, have to be kept away from the land-brawl).

T2 aa ship rips everything that has wings on its range, Skeeters kill every t1 plane, theyre fragile but very cheap and have the defender's dps ~~

but if you try to protect your crocks with 3 skeeters and get raped by 20 brawlers, the problem isnt on the aa capability of the skeeters, or the opness of brawlers, but rather between your 2 ears.

Now, would it be nicer if there were an L1 SAM amphib tank? Obviously.

i liked my idea of interplanetary ion cannon anti alien defence turret system more, and it makes more sense too, Obviously.

Amphibs alone dont have any kind of AA yes , but the commander alone cant build amphib factories, so you will have land, air, hover or sea factories that can provide aa for the amphibs.

Re-purposing the L1 SAM kbot is a little odd. But on the other hand, it's generally considered a rather useless unit.

generally considered useless by whom? its mobile aa just like skeeters and samsons are. This sentence makes as much sense as saying that flash is generally considered a rather useless unit because it cant fly, unlike banshees.

We're talking about how hovers are OP compared to ships, right?

we being you and yan ?

Amphibs. I suppose calling them a "tech tree" was silly of me, more a "family" of units. But they've always been the poor, abandoned, useless stepchild of TA mods.

yeah, like pelicans were poor,useless and abandoned in TA? D: :D D:

[Pxtl]

My point was that this is an L1 thing. Obviously, at L2 it's a whole other ball of wax. And comparing the Crasher to the Samson and Skeeter is silly, since Samson and Skeeter both wear numerous hats that make them far, far much more than a simple SAM unit, unlike the Crasher.

But yes, I should just use a transport-boat - I just forgot about those because I gave up on them in frustration when they were buggy as hell.

[manored]

Transports are a difficult and slow way to deliver battle units to the enemy beach, it would probally be better to secure the beach with arti and then make a factory there :) or maybe just make a hovers factory, as hovers have everthing you need to make up a solid arm

[Krathi]

I agree to the hovers are OP. I was recently in a SSB battle, and I was charged with defending the west sea. I sent a couple skeeters to where enemies usually build Shipyards. No shipyard, so I set my Skeeters to patrol around. Eventually, I decide to take some metal spots. Out of nowhere, about 10 Anaconda's come out of nowhere and decimate me.

[det]

I agree to the hovers are OP. I was recently in a SSB battle, and I was charged with defending the west sea. I sent a couple skeeters to where enemies usually build Shipyards. No shipyard, so I set my Skeeters to patrol around. Eventually, I decide to take some metal spots. Out of nowhere, about 10 Anaconda's come out of nowhere and decimate me.

1) 10 anacondas are _expensive_
2) skeeter are are absolutely horid fighters. They are only useful for scouting, aa and rushing.

[KDR_11k]

I agree to the hovers are OP. I was recently in a SSB battle, and I was charged with defending the west sea. I sent a couple skeeters to where enemies usually build Shipyards. No shipyard, so I set my Skeeters to patrol around. Eventually, I decide to take some metal spots. Out of nowhere, about 10 Anaconda's come out of nowhere and decimate me.

Sounds more like being unprepared. You didn't have combat units and didn't make any after noticing you can't raid with your ships either. Of course scouts vs tanks is hopeless.

[Krathi]

I didn't make Scouts the entire time. I had about 3 or 4 Corvettes.

[KDR_11k]

3-4 combat units vs 10+. Should be obvious what'll happen.

[Edible]

He had a few corvettes and iirc a floating HLT, and the hovers came pretty fast, there is very little you can do about that, as a sea player who has won his sea should you be expected to spend your time massing Anti hover, or actually helping the land guy?

A while earlier I saw someone make 9 corvettes and 7 destroyers for pure anti hover defense as they were making life so hard for him (again I was the land guy and somewhat grumpy about this)

[Krathi]

Actually, he had me boxed into a corner, so I needed to resort to Floating HLT's to give me any kind of cover. Eventually, his hovers ran through me and subs were close behind making it impossible for me to hold the line.

[[Krogoth86]]

Well if he can push you into a corner and obviously has help from another player (or even did build the subs himself!) he deserves winning this. Porcing on water also is something that doesn't really work. The HLTs are mostly something to prevent enemy destroyers from doing some artillery work on your torpedo launchers but somewhat suck against Hovercrafts...

[Neddie]

Skeeters are actually the best hovercraft in the hands of a micro-oriented player, but that said, I once again assert that Hovers are not OP.

EDIT: Except for the Cons.

[Evil4Zerggin]

I've already stated my opinion, namely that hovers are not OP but corvettes need a little help. Corvettes should have a clear advantage over hovers, since compared to hovers, they take energy to fire, are vulnerable to torpedoes, and cannot cross over to land. It is not enough for them to be only marginally better than hovers in direct combat, given these extra advantages of hovers.

On the other hand, the current argument for hovers being OP makes a crucial mistake:

Taking an Example From One of Your Own Games

This is as much bad argumentative tactics than a bad argument per se. If you say "I got destroyed in this game by X unit, therefore they are OP", people will start picking apart your gameplay, rightly or not. This is because there is a tendency to complain that X unit is OP simply because they were defeated by it (e.g., complaints about OP air when people don't build AA). Since I haven't watched the game in question, I'm not qualified to say who is right in this case, but it's bad argumentative tactics on your part either way. If you're going to give an example from one of your own games, at least take one where you won using the unit you are claiming is OP (like manored).

He had a few corvettes and iirc a floating HLT, and the hovers came pretty fast, there is very little you can do about that, as a sea player who has won his sea should you be expected to spend your time massing Anti hover, or actually helping the land guy?

A while earlier I saw someone make 9 corvettes and 7 destroyers for pure anti hover defense as they were making life so hard for him (again I was the land guy and somewhat grumpy about this)

In my experience, when you have won a sea, you should go hovers yourself immediately (although make sure you have really won the sea first). This is the quickest way to help a land player, who tend to need the help NAO. If you win your sea quickly enough, you should be able to out-hover any opposing hover player. Also destroyers don't make good anti-hover.

Eventually, his hovers ran through me and subs were close behind making it impossible for me to hold the line.

This is what makes sea defense difficult. There are three classes of units (air, subs, and hovers), for which no weapon can effectively fight against more than one of. This is why I say corvettes should have a clear advantage against hovers in direct combat; being the main anti-hover measure, it better be good at it. I think this can be done without making hovers unable to crush a player who built mostly TLs/royers.

The HLTs are mostly something to prevent enemy destroyers from doing some artillery work on your torpedo launchers but somewhat suck against Hovercrafts...

This brings up an interesting point: technically, the destroyer has a longer range than the HLT. However, since HLTs lasers don't quite stop at their listed range and the royer's shot velocity is insufficient to hit its maximum range on some maps, this often makes out-ranging HLTs with royers tricky in practice.

[manored]

Hey Krathi Im not sure but I have the impression the game I described is the same you did :) Not sure tough since I dont remember perfectly but I remember to have attacked with 10 anacondas, I remember that there were patrolling scouts, I remember that there were frigates who were defeated and at least 1 Httl and some torpedo launchers, I remember that the first rampaging of the hovers destroyed the enemy base but he tried to rebuild a bit before being wiped out, I remember that I shortly after made a shipyard to make submarines so I could kill the mexes and take em over and also to maybe tech up later, and I also think I set a sub to patrol beach to prevent the enemy from trying to return to sea. Oh and I also was on west sea.

If in this game your land allies were utterly defeated by my land allies, a lone submarine destroyed your mexes one by one and a commander standing on beach managed to dgun a few of my hovers then we are speaking of the same game... cool :)

[Crayfish]

proof of noob. Attacking from sea to land used to be highly op, meaning that whoever controlled sea in deltasiege usually won the game.

Whoever controls the bottom land section on deltaseige dry usually wins the game. Controlling that much area of map is a huge advantage whether it be sea or land or anything else - I don't think that this points to sea being overpowered.

The corvette does seem a bit weak to me. I've never personally felt that hovers are overpowered as they're only really effective if no one's prepared for them - similar to how a lot of air will overwhelm an army with only light aa.

The amphibious complex is a great idea but seems undeveloped and barely anyone builds one. What if a couple of units were added that belonged to the amphibious complex only? I'd like to see:

A submarine that could fire anti-aircraft missiles (either by surfacing on seeing air or by launching guided undersea to water missiles).

A submarine or other underwater-only vehicle that could launch long range sea-to-land missiles (akin to a benthic merl).

A cheaper unit that moves very quickly on water but at a moderate pace on land (I imagine a big powerboat style propeller that folds away on land where wedge shaped tank tracks or tractor wheels take over) with reasonable hit points and low power weapons, probably plasma or lasers.

This would make the amphibious route a more balanced and cost-effective strategy.

[manored]

I think that there are some complications into making submarine units shot something other than torpedo type weapons being why such things dont exist yet.

[Neddie]

I think that there are some complications into making submarine units shot something other than torpedo type weapons being why such things dont exist yet.

Yes.

[KDR_11k]

I think that there are some complications into making submarine units shot something other than torpedo type weapons being why such things dont exist yet.

Fixed in 76b1.