The Spring Delusion

[Pressure Line]

We need more tutorials, with step by step instructions on how to make a mod mostly or entirely from scratch. At that point, new modders will no longer be forced to "pimp out the TA car" and will be able to follow their own ideas and ideals for a mod.

http://spring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Basic_s3 ... king_guide
http://spring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Simple_Mod_Tutorial

if you have trouble reading, modding is probably not for you.

[Saktoth]

people are only here because of the popularity of BA, but because of the popularity of BA nothing else gets played.

People are only here for BA because if not for BA they would not be here at all. More correctly i should say 'The OTA content mods' because a lot of us would still be playing AA or XTA or QA or something if BA wasnt around.

The difficulty of getting enough players to flesh out a game of EE, or Gundam, or any of the other mods is a problem that that mod and the community for that mod faces on its own. If they were separate projects with their own engines, servers, etc they would still suffer from the same problem of getting enough players to play the game. Only then the choice is not 'Maybe ill log into the lobby and play some BA games, and maybe EE if its hosted' but rather 'Maybe ill log into *insert retail RTS here*, or sit in the EE lobby waiting for a game to be hosted.'

Its very hard to build a community around an multiplayer environment, it takes a lot of work, a lot of advertising, and a certain 'critical mass' where there are enough games that it actually gets played. These are problems any non-retail multiplayer game will face.

[Pressure Line]

im going to stop posting in this thread, because if there is one thing this community is awesome it, its missing the point, seemingly intentionally.

[AF]

That is a problem of starting an initial playerbase. Once an initial stable playerbase is secured the server should grow as long as the mod improves and is maintained, very much like the initial spring server.

However the problem on the main server is that this initial small playerbase at its most fragile state faces a huge competitor in the primary mod. Its a huge advert banner across the bottom of the lobby to steal away users, and this is a point where just 1 user is eneded to convert.

Whereas in the standalone server the user waits for an xyz game, in the shared server model they try out other mods to while the time away, and the primary mod dominates so there's a good chance itll be the mod fo choice.

So 10 players join looking for say EE. First one joins, sees a BA game and joins it. Second one joins and cant see any EE games or players so joins a BA game, third player, and so on. This is why players of these mods are usually in the inner circles of a modder or hardcore loyal fans. The TA mods have such a hardcore base, an unusually large one provided by the pre-existing OTA community.

[Saktoth]

You think these people will join an 'EE only' server and sit around waiting for a game? Why would they do that, when they can join the BA server and get a game right now.

They wont just sit in an empty lobby. They'll play BA in the meantime, or Team Fortress, or go work in the garden, or make love to their girlfriend, or such.

They'll always be doing something else if they cant find a game. Only the hardcore loyalist will sit in an empty lobby waiting for an EE game to start, and such a hardcore loyalist could just as easily sit in the lobby with all the BA games, able to attract new players by spamming main, but also just by having a game open (whenever i host a new mod, usually with some zany title like 'testmod' or 'somemodlol' or 'Tank War' or an obscure acronym, i always get people asking me for a link with no solicitation).

People will be less inclined to join an empty server to wait for a game, and more likely to see that its empty and just leave. At least there is some chance to attract 'passers by' when you have all those BA games and BA players running about.

The problem with getting critical mass for these games is a problem they will face regardless of BA, and if anything, they are helped by having an established community of passers by who already have their client, maps, are familiar with the software and can see whenever they have a game open.

[Fanger]

Please elaborate on how making EE more large scale is a step in the wrong direction.. the wrong direction from what..? making it more like BA.. or AA or FF or Gundam or what..?

I really wish people would actually post this kind of feeback in a thread about EE when there is one instead of sniping at EE from the sidelines in a variety of random other threads.. I cant be arsed to track down all your critiques if your going to make them in every section BUT mod discussion..

[Relative]

Off topic, but fang are you starting up work for EE again?

[Peet]

Off topic, but fang are you starting up work for EE again?

Lurk moar

[Mooseral]

im going to stop posting in this thread, because if there is one thing this community is awesome it, its missing the point, seemingly intentionally.

This is ironic, as you have also missed my point entirely.

I said that we need more tutorials, so that people can start modding more easily.

What you posted are, indeed, tutorials. And yes, I have seen them in the past. They have been updated recently, I notice. This is good, this is progress in the direction that is needed. When I first started trying to follow them in the summer, several had "to be continued" stuck on the end, or not enough information and a link to a TA forum.

They are much better now. There is still room for improvement, but better nonetheless.

One improvement could be fairly quickly made by moving each section (setting up general mod files, making a unit, making a model, etc.) onto it's own page, and making an index for them all on a central page. Not neccisary, but it helps. Images would also help to illustrate the point of the tutorials.

Yes, we have tutorials. Yes, I can read. What I have meant is that it would be useful to have one central, intuitive location in which to find every tutorial that can be found from the Spring community, so that potential modders do not get frustrated and bugger off, or be forced to rely on variable editing in existing mods to learn. After they stop doing those two things, diversity ensues.

As I said, much progress has been made, but there is room for more. On various threads throughout the forum, there are, or have been, tutorials of excellent quality written, which I have not noticed included into the wiki.

On the subject of the two-server idea, yes, come to think of it, it would probably be a bad idea due to segregation (or, in other words, possible ensuing community problems) or other factors. However, it might also help mod diversity by getting rid of the "banner ad" for one mod on the bottom, and allowing underdogs to get a foothold. Players joining said server would not just see a game of BA and join, they would see a small list of odd mods , and either join one or host a server for another.

However, this idea is simply the ideal of what could happen. In all likelyhood, the server would either end up empty or full of the most popular mod, defeating the point, and possibly causing more harm than good.

Wheee... here be block of text.


Also, EE: I think I saw some files of updated versions of it on UF a while back? May be mistaken, but new versions would be welcome, and I haven't seen a thread about on the topic.

[rcdraco]

If you don't want to waste hours on end digging through page after page, and getting lost and turned backwards, you shouldn't be a modder. Lazier people then you have tried to mod, and even made something of themselves.

[Pressure Line]

im going to stop posting in this thread, because if there is one thing this community is awesome it, its missing the point, seemingly intentionally.

This is ironic, as you have also missed my point entirely.

those tutorials are what i learned to mod from, starting in about april of this year. At the start of June i released a working mini-mod. this coming from someone without a game artistry (modeling/texturing) background, and minimal coding background.

http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=11016

srsly. its not hard. and i'll be the first to admit im not the quickest guy around (im not retarded either though) but i didnt really have any problem doing the actual 'maek mod' part of UP (it was the artistic side that got me in the end)

[Mooseral]

Feh, s'true, I'm probably just being a lazy ass .

Once Spring starts working again on my computer, I'd like to take another stab at modding... especially since the tutorials have been added to since I last checked.

After this, I may be able to actually contribute something to my arguement, and shuffle some tutorials around.

We'll see how it goes.

[Saktoth]

I really wish people would actually post this kind of feeback in a thread about EE when there is one instead of sniping at EE from the sidelines in a variety of random other threads..

I think its that the EE community has had a tendency to jump down the throat of anyone offering criticism. You have managed to build a culture of 'dont insult EE, Fang/Forb/Whoever will go batshit at you'. Especially some of the more common criticisms 'I cant tell the units apart! They're all the same' 'How do i tech?!' etc. You've probably made those complaints even more common by making the units tiny (I also think you've dramatically improved the differentiation by changing the models, which offsets this, EE is great this isnt a complaint please dont eat me).

With this atmosphere hostile to feedback (And these poor suckers have no idea that the issues they've raised have been raised 100 times before- to them its the first time they've heard about it and they think they each have a unique insight), most people probably just cant be bothered. This is compounded by the fact that most of the discussion regarding EE goes on off this forum (Which isnt a bad thing, since this forum is a pack of howling babbling rhesus monkeys, but it does reduce the sense of openness).

Other than that, and for my part, there is just something about the 'feel' and even the overall design principles that doesnt 'gel' with me. Its pretty useless to you to tell you to change your whole game from the ground up based on the 'vibe' from a person who doesnt even play it that much (Though i do play it, when i can, because it can be a refreshing break from BA and its not a bad mod). If i played it more i might be able to pin down what doesnt sit right for me, but at the moment, i probably cant give any sort of feedback which would be either useful or welcome.

Thats just me though. Perhaps they have different reasons.

[knorke]

Please elaborate on how making EE more large scale is a step in the wrong direction.. the wrong direction from what..? making it more like BA.. or AA or FF or Gundam or what..?

wrong direction for creating interessting gameplay imo.
EE is the same or even more number of units at each techlevel than most mods/games, sadly after some minutes into the game the unitdifferences get LOST because you will just mix them in a 1 to 3 ratio anyway.
Of course you can even do the "10x flash, 2 missle", repeat on in any other mod too, but in EE it happens more oftern/earlier.
When you do not have to think about what to build, the game gets boring.

I really wish people would actually post this kind of feeback in a thread about EE when there is one instead of sniping at EE from the sidelines in a variety of random other threads.. I cant be arsed to track down all your critiques if your going to make them in every section BUT mod discussion..

I think when there still were EE-threads there was a lot of feedback but atm the EE-forum (if it is still alive) is not even listed in the "External Development Forums & Related Websites"-thread.

[Fanger]

actually it is.. its smoths development forum, which has a whole section devoted to EE.. people should ah actually go there at some point..