Site: Requesting participation

[Dragon45]

+1 for git

setting up a push/pull SSH server on a linux install is trivial as hell. so fing easy. so fing beautiful. so fing useful.

<3 git

talk to me or imbac if you need help with weird git setups and cases B)

[SinbadEV]

I would like to help out, I feel that I would at least make a good copy-editor and I tend to think about things in a logical yet innovative manner. I had actually done a bit of work back in the day with creating what amounts to the closest thing we've had to a manual and at the time basically outlined what was needed and got people to fill in the gaps then effectively rewrote what people had written back into human readable English.

I am also interested in seeing if I could be a technical writer and am told getting experience on an open source project is a good way to start.

The way I see it there are three separate parts to the Spring project that are currently only peripherally linked.

First is the actual engine developers, second is content developers and third is the people playing the game. We need all these people in the community but their needs are different.

I don't know if I could handle a project of this magnitude without the willing participation and feedback from these different people. Being able to facilitate this communication doesn't seem impossible.

Oh, and I tend to get really wordy and philosophical at points and if what I'm doing doesn't keep my interest things will go sour.

The way I see it is this "job" would involve:

Convincing people willing to help with the site to work together instead of competing. Meanwhile ensuring that the final design is something we can all live with while presenting a easy access point to the various aspects of the project.

Creating the "Simple English" template which people will fill in with their languages' words, and ensuring that people who are willing to translate know what needs to be translated.

Collecting bug-reports and design complaints and opening them up for discussion for suggested improvement and then communicating them to the site designers/developers to implement.

It would also involve clear concise communication with the projects leads and server owners to ensure that no-one is stepping on anyone else's toes.


In addition to all that, I see the lack of cohesive documentation troubling. My hope would be to see instructions for coders, content creators, and players so that the process of getting involved with Spring is not so daunting.

I don't know if anyone else has stepped up so let me know if you think I could help with the process you envision.

[Satirik]

http://0.t.free.fr/banner1.7z

[Tim Blokdijk]

Thanks for the source Satirik.

I would like to help out, I feel that I would at least make a good copy-editor and I tend to think about things in a logical yet innovative manner. I had actually done a bit of work back in the day with creating what amounts to the closest thing we've had to a manual and at the time basically outlined what was needed and got people to fill in the gaps then effectively rewrote what people had written back into human readable English.

Great!

I am also interested in seeing if I could be a technical writer and am told getting experience on an open source project is a good way to start.

I fully agree, and why not build/play a game while at it.

The way I see it there are three separate parts to the Spring project that are currently only peripherally linked.

First is the actual engine developers, second is content developers and third is the people playing the game. We need all these people in the community but their needs are different.

You're missing a important category here, the moderators, I ran into this 'problem' before so I split the community up into two parts "Spring Contributors" and "Spring Users" with sub-groups for both. I wrote it down in chapter 3.

I don't know if I could handle a project of this magnitude without the willing participation and feedback from these different people. Being able to facilitate this communication doesn't seem impossible.

Oh, and I tend to get really wordy and philosophical at points and if what I'm doing doesn't keep my interest things will go sour.

Philosophical is fine, I like to do that to. As long as you try to translate that to something practical things will work out.
You will have to keep taps on the "interest things" as you know what's interesting to you. If you "hang" at some task communicate it so others can take over from you.

The way I see it is this "job" would involve:

Convincing people willing to help with the site to work together instead of competing. Meanwhile ensuring that the final design is something we can all live with while presenting a easy access point to the various aspects of the project.

Yes, but also actively bringing up new plans/idea's and making sure older plans get acted on, everything should end up on a roadmap or something else. There also should be a follow-up on anybody indicating a willingness to contribute to the site.

Creating the "Simple English" template which people will fill in with their languages' words, and ensuring that people who are willing to translate know what needs to be translated.

Exactly.

Collecting bug-reports and design complaints and opening them up for discussion for suggested improvement and then communicating them to the site designers/developers to implement.

Having site requirements documented is a important part of this, see chapter 3 linked above.

It would also involve clear concise communication with the projects leads and server owners to ensure that no-one is stepping on anyone else's toes.

More or less, conflict is ok as long as it's not effecting the development process, I wrote the processes in such a way that it removes ego/ownership and make it crystal clear how it's practically guaranteed that work done gets used within the project. (and that people can work in parallel, and ... and ...)

In addition to all that, I see the lack of cohesive documentation troubling. My hope would be to see instructions for coders, content creators, and players so that the process of getting involved with Spring is not so daunting.

I hope the 'new' site will become a good platform for this.

I don't know if anyone else has stepped up so let me know if you think I could help with the process you envision.

clericvash indicated that he was willing to help out but feel free to pick up on things, if you talk before you do it should be possible to work in parallel.

If you don't have any more questions regarding the more broad task description I gave in the first post then I would like to move on to the more practical things.
Can you give the translation system a good trial run? Play around with the "development" language to see if you can work with it? (translation page)
You can display the dev language by using a url like this;
http://newspring.clan-sy.com/index.php? ... evelopment
And it's possible to get debug information via a url like this:
http://newspring.clan-sy.com/index.php? ... nt&debug=1
There is also a "empty" language:
http://newspring.clan-sy.com/index.php?language=empty
Note that I'm still debugging some character encoding problems, tell me if any translation work in the dev. env. needs to be preserved. But try to focus on finding any bugs or other problems that may hinder any real translation work. Once it's clear that the software is working effectively we can start (and document) a more formal translation process.

Time to go to bed...

[clericvash]

Just a note you need to do a check like:

Code: Select all

if (!isset($_GET['language']))
{
// make a defualt language here
}

As if "index.php?language=english" isn't in the url, no language is set.

Don't know if you already knew or not but thought i would give you a poke :)

[Tim Blokdijk]

I don't quite understand what you mean, for the wiki and messageboard there is a problem that it defaults to the browser language but other then that I'm not aware of any bugs in the language detection code.

This is the detection code involved:

Code: Select all

function set_session_language()
{
	global $site_configuration;

	// First we look if a language is selected by the user.
	if (isset($_GET[language]))
	{
		// User selected a language.
		if(self::check_language_available($_GET[language]))
		{
			// Language exsists in the database.
			$_SESSION['language'] = $_GET[language];
		}
	}
	// If not then we look if a language is set in the session.
	elseif (isset($_SESSION['language']))
	{
		// It exsists. All is cool.
	}
	// If both fail we detect the language from the browser settings.
	elseif (isset($_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE']))
	{
		$languages = explode(",", $_SERVER['HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE']);
		foreach($languages as $lang)
		{
			$lang_tmp = explode(";q=", trim($lang));
			$lang = trim($lang_tmp[0]);
			if(isset($lang_tmp[1]))
			{
				$importance = trim($lang_tmp[1]);
			}
			else
			{
				$importance = 1;
			}
			$language_array["$lang"] = (float)$importance;
	    }
		// print_r($language_array);
	    arsort($language_array); // You end up with a array of languages and there importance, first language in array is most important.

	    foreach($language_array as $lang => $importance)
		{
			$tmp = self::map_language($lang);
			if(self::check_language_available($tmp))
			{
				$_SESSION['language'] = $tmp;
			}
	    }
	}
	// If we can't get it from the browser we do a fallback to the default language.
	else
	{
		$_SESSION['language'] = $site_configuration[language][default_language];
	}
}

[clericvash]

http://newspring.clan-sy.com/

Look, no language, you haven't checked properly if a language is set, hence what my code does.

Ps. your code is overly complicated for simply setting a language!

[AF]

- fix download page formatting and .htaccess
- add download page to top menu
- add border separating top banner and content so it isn't horrible cut
- copy the wiki over
- copy forums
- put something development related on the development page
- add mantis to the top menu
- add the homepage to the top menu so as to clear up confusion of users pressing news and getting something they didn't quite expect.
- add a gallery page or a link to the screenshot wiki page in the menu
- get a new banner and logo image

Then

Switch old site to new site

Bish Bash Bosh All done.

Then you can work on translations and extra stuff.

[clericvash]

What AF said + what i said, and done, no offence Tim but you over complicate everything :/

[Tim Blokdijk]

http://newspring.clan-sy.com/

Look, no language, you haven't checked properly if a language is set, hence what my code does.

Ps. your code is overly complicated for simply setting a language!

I get a language here so you found a bug, can you tell me how you language preferences are configured in your browser?
And it might be possible to make the code a little more simple, do note that about half the code is for browser language detection. But go for it if you can improve something.

@AF, can you do a thing or two on that list?
Also there is limited room in the menu for extra buttons, I like to keep things functional on 800x600 but 1024x786 won't allow for much more buttons so this needs some more thought.
Wiki and messageboard data don't need to be copy'ed over, newspring will move to spring were all existing data is already in the database. Don't know if we fully understand each other here so please confirm if this is a issue or not.
Link to mantis should be put on the development page imo.

I like my work on the translation stuff so I will spend some time on it getting it to work. And I have more things that I'm going to do before launch.
- Include Mantis in the new site.
- Include Fisheye in the new site.
- Fix the encoding problems.
- Test back-up restore procedure.

But I also have a job that is demanding some real code from me, so if you can't wait - pull down the code and start hacking.

[AF]

tim I think tranlation should wait untill the actual site is operational. Translation for site v2.1, lets focus on V2.0 and getting it in a state where it could easily replace what we have with or without any extra new features.

Since I switched to ubuntu while Vista was borked I've lost access to all ym usual dev tools. So I cant summon up any artwork right now tht doesnt already exist. I also don't know enough to fix the download pages issues with htaccess or the total lack of css formatting in certain parts.

[Tim Blokdijk]

There is really not a single good reason to delay the translation system to 2.1.
As it's already in place and feature complete.
It's more work to replace it with hard coded text then to fix a few bugs people may find.
SinbadEV indicated that he would like to use it, dropping it now would exclude him from making a contribution in that field.
Also translation work is something people can do with a less heavy skill set, allowing people to get involved in site development without much barriers.
It's one of the main reasons why I decided to build a new site and I find it a reasonable technical challenge to implement it.

As for the feedback, I'm quite happy with it on itself but try to focus on the things you can do, not so much on what you would like me to do.
Anyway you can do "- put something development related on the development page" Knock up some text for it and discuss it with me and others like SinbadEV and clericvash.
I would suggest something about open source, code & content development (Tobi leads code devs, Argh has this new thing), site development including translation work and lobby/forum moderation. Other things? Maybe you can write something about lobby and AI development?

[AF]

I already did write something about AI in the wiki here, but I don't have an afternoon to sit down and figure out where the text is in the source code setup the site on my host then spend time thinking of something to put then actually do it then tweak it.

[Tim Blokdijk]

The text is saved to the database, you can use http://newspring.clan-sy.com/translation for the translation work, you don't need to setup the site on your own host. Translators don't need to setup anything or have any coding knowledge.

I'm going to evaluate the "effectiveness" of this topic this week so if clericvash, SinbadEV or some else intends to make some real contributions then please do something with it this week.

[Tim Blokdijk]

I started this topic to get a non-coder to do non-coding stuff for the site in development, so that I can keep my focus on the code part. This was a month ago. This more or less failed as nobody really picked up on it. So.. I'm left with a choice here, I can continue to spend my time on getting an active contributor or I can drop the idea and do all the non-coding work myself.

Now I'm limited in my time as I have to focus on some heavy coding at work. This means it's impossible for me to dedicate a few day in a row on site development. It limited to a few hours here and there each week. I'm not going to put Spring before my work or social life.

Doing all the non-coding stuff myself would delay the site beyond 2008, but it would be done eventually.
Continue spending time on getting someone to do the non-coding stuff and failing at it would be quite demotivating and delay things even more as time spend on this is not spend on the site itself.
But if someone is going to put in the hours to do the non-coding work then I can do the bug-fixes and we launch the site within weeks.

So what should I do?

[AF]

You won't find a single person to do this, it just won't work.

Just as you won't find anybody to rebuild the wiki single handedly.

You need to put up a minimal site content and provide the tools to let the community collectively edit and update the content in their own time at their own pace.

You said all the content was in a database? Is that to say they're wiki pages? If they arent perhaps it should be made that way so that we can take advantage of wiki improvements and editors. That way a page template can be turned into simple blocks inside which there'd be something akin to <?php get_wiki_page("about_topleft"); ?>

[Tim Blokdijk]

And why would it not work to get a dedicated person for this?
We have loads of dedicated people for specific parts of the project.

You need to put up a minimal site content and provide the tools to let the community collectively edit and update the content in their own time at their own pace.

Minimal site can be found at http://newspring.clan-sy.com/ tools to collectively edit here http://newspring.clan-sy.com/translation and yes it works like a wiki in that all revisions are stored, code to revert edits in just not written atm. The translation system uses the same mark-up as phpbb. (I suggest you use it for once so you know how it works.)
As you see all requirements are there, problem only Satirik has tried to actually use it. If the "collective community" is going to update the site in this pace then there won't be a new site for years. Someone has to pick it up and get this thing going, SinbadEV was/is very promising but he has been silent after his initial post. I mean the only requirement is to write English, 99.9% of this community is doing that on this forum right now. I need one to do the hours and use his/her "English writing" skills in another text box.

Well, alright that's slightly simplified as they must also get people to translate that to other languages and take feedback on improvements. But that's step 2. Everybody seems to be "deer stuck in headlights" on the idea that I actually need a NON-CODER to do an important thing in this community.

[AF]

Tim, why wont it work?!

Because it hasn't worked so far and every attempt to do anything similar has never worked either.

Wjat your asking of this one person is vague and udnefined and freeform. What they do know is it is time consuming and that they arent going to get much out of it themselves.

And tim I only know english and a handful of foreign words, and little interest in foreign languages.

You will never find someone who does what you want of them and does it well and manages to stick around for a longtime and doesnt end up causing trouble in the community by clashing with the general consensus on whats butt ugly and what isnt. If you do you'll be extremely lucky, and I mean that in the same odds of 'Hey I've won the lottery yay! Lets go buy a mansion and 50 cars!!'.

Simply put you have extremely unrealistic expectations in trying to fill that role with a single person.

And ontop of that the role is too abstract and freeform for people to really understand what it means, because from were I am, it looks like:

"I'm going to dip in and out of the codebase every now and again and make sure nothing breaks or gets hacked or throws error messages, and you're going todo everything else"

On top of that you're creating a single point of failure.

The only realistic way your going to do this is by allowing all the community to contribute little pieces. The closed 1 person model for each role may work in a paid environment where that person is paid to come in each day to do work, it just isn't going to work in an opensource environment unless they're very enthusiastic about it and committed, which in this instance is unlikely to happen.

Ontop of that, almost everyone able to do something is already doing something. Its like an employer looking in a swamp for a recruit.


And if you still dont think I'm making valid points, the most damning of all of the evidence is this very thread!


Now, to look at the translation system as you put it.

From the standpoint as a tool for maintaining the sites content its horrendous. Even its name is misleading. The fonts are all black on dark blue and hard to read. And it isnt very clear at all what it is each field is either save for a small description to the side which only explains what it is, and nothing about where it is and what it'll actually look like which is extremely important.

I don't know what you think but generally when you want to offload work onto other people for a community project, you do a little bit of it yourself to give people a headstart, then you provide the tools for the community to do little bits at a time in their own pace. If someone wants to take up the role of being in charge they'll assume that roles and you'll see the vast majority of edits and changes will be done by that person or persons.

This is how a wiki works, and its one of the main reasons we have a wiki at all. No one person would ever be willing enough to write all of our wiki for us, maybe one or two pages but most people take existing content and edit or append to it. Perhaps to re-organise bits.

But you don't advertise for 1 single person to take up the role of maintaining the site so you can just fiddle in the background at the underlying code. If anything I'd call it intimidating potential applicants.

You need to change tact tim or things are going to continue like this. Reconcile the larger variables in your translation system into the wiki system if only to give it a more familiar interface, and to make it more flexible.

[Tim Blokdijk]

Alright, to freeform.. "take up the content" is to vague. My problem with a strict "do this, this and this" is that I have to hold someone's hand and think for them, I don't have time for that. But middle ground would be to do it as a start to get people into it. Maybe a step by step tutorial? That way I have to do it once and then everybody can read that. I'm going to do that. It would give that headstart you talk about.
I agree that this is not a small role (still it's a non-coding role) I'm essentially asking someone to take on 50% of the site.

Letting the community "contribute little pieces" is to vague to me. Sure, I like this as much as possible but I don't think it's going to work without someone at a minimum making sure people communicate about the big picture.

And about the wiki comparison a good wiki is not a "free for all" place you have a shitload of guides, processes and administrators over at wikipedia for example.
Still moving as much as possible to wiki pages is a good idea I guess.

Maybe I have time to write that tutorial tomorrow, lets see if that help to clear things up.

[AF]

no no no

First of all a good wiki is self moderating and self maintaining simply because good users edit out bad text and it builds up piece by piece over time.

With regards to actual graphics that make up the sites layout rather than its content, the whole process is greatly intimidating. For example the whole fiasco over you being highly territorial over your logo, it discourages contribution because a contributor knows that they may well have to go through a big circus to stand a chance of getting anything done and it's a risk most people won't take.

And if people need a tutorial for some so simple then you have a major User design issue. For example, in a wiki or a forum the user doesnt need a manual once they know what the software actually does, because its obvious, and for those parts it isnt its been highlighted so it is obvious. The only exception is formatting and syntax.