Site: Requesting participation

[Tim Blokdijk]

I made this request in the topic at General Discussion but as people like to talk about the looks of the site instead of replying to this request I decided to make this topic here in Development.

To make it clear, talking about the looks of the site here is OFF-TOPIC!
Thanks, now get me someone to fill this role below.

Requesting participation

I'm looking for some more participation on the new site, more particular, I like to see someone take responsibility for the content of the new site. No real technical skills required, only reasonable written English and the ability to work in a structured way with a lot of different people on equal basis. Willingness to understand technical (no 3D or sound on site) or political (open source, open standards) or personal (time constrains, motivation) limitations.

Specific responsibilities would be:

* Leading discussions about the site content.
What pages should be on the site and what information should be shown on those pages. example
-[More detailed]-
* The site is made of several pages (news, downloads screenshots, ...), each page should have a purpose. You have to think about what pages are needed.
* Discuss this with me and other people involved so we more or less agree on what pages are needed.
* Then you have to write a very simple description in English for each paragraf on those pages. This is the "Development" language.
* Coordinating translation.
Make sure that there are people that localize the site, see the translation page
-[More detailed]-
* Now based on this simple English description people have to write the real "localized" texts. (The real English text people read when they are on the site is also one on the languages that need to be "localized". If you don't understand this, belive me it actually makes perfect sense once you get into it.)
* For this you have to find people that can write good texts in different languages. (and understand the simple "Development" English text you wrote.)
* Gathering requirements.
Talking with all the people that use the site and finding out what would be needed to make the site match there requirements. Then documenting this. Chapter 3
-[More detailed]-
* You would have to listen to all the people that have feedback on how the site ... (sucks, is ugly, .. bla bla)
* Write that down in a non-whining way for discussion by people that know how to fix it.
* Planning changes.
Discussing these requirements with the developers that have to implement this. Chapter 2 of the pdf linked above.
-[More detailed]-
* Talk to me or the translators to get the things people whine about fixed in some way.
* Follow up on the things and make sure they actualy get done.

Understand that this is a time draining thing and your work would be somewhat invisible. And although not directly technical in nature it's still required to have a clue in that fiend. (or at leased a willingness to learn and understand) The major part of this is having people skills, if you can't get along with everybody when required things become really difficult as you will have no real dictator style power but still have to make sure things keep going.
So if there's someone that can *do* this I would be quite happy as then I can focus on the technical implementation details without having to coordinate discussions about, site features, translations and content.
Discussing page layout is also something I like to see this person do when someone with graphical web skills makes designs like has happened in the past in this topic. As I don't have the time to follow up and coordinate this at the moment.
Understand that you need to be very PRO-ACTIVE so if you reply with this like "Sure I like to do that." and then sit back and wait for me or others to tell you what to do.. you fail. You actually need to tell me what to do.

So anybody?
Feel free to ask questions.

[Tim Blokdijk]

I updated the post above with some more details so it's more practical. (I personally like broad descriptions, but some people like the top down approach..)

Also note that if you can't do all 4 things, I'm quite happy with people doing one of the four things. It's not a all or nothing deal.

[clericvash]

I will be happy to lead discussions and update site content as much as i can, only with people willing to actually contribute to the discussions. (you may notice in a now locked thread i got really annoyed at a lot of people on this forum). I will be happy to lead but will leave if people be like the usually are with no moderation, i will be happy to lead the website development doing back end (php/mysql/xhtml/css).

[Tim Blokdijk]

You make Tim a happy boy.

I think it's smart to directly ask for input from people that matter, like I asked Swift to comment on the "Community News" thing.
But do keep it public as I can't follow or comment on pm conversations.
If to many "non-contributing" people "contribute" to the discussion we can move the discussion to the subversion forum that is read only for the non-contributors. (I can add people to that forum if they need posting rights)

Help on the back-end would be nice but right now I like to have you focus on the front-end. Once you have that set-up you can hand the task to someone else and help (or take over from) me on the back-end.

Some very specific tasks you can pick up on right now are:
Think about the about page and what we need to communicate with it. I was thinking about it as the current "team members" page and a bit of history ect. A problem is how to keep it up to date. I don't need a final English text only a solid description what is page is about.
Same with the development page, I like to explain the open source stuff and how people are invited to help out.
You can use the "Development" language on the translation page to describe the pages in simple English so non-native English speakers can understand the idea.
Once we have clear how those pages need to look and squashed any back-end problems we have to find people to write the texts for it in different languages. This translation process needs to be documented (paragraph 2.5).
Talk to Cabbage about his video('s), it needs to be hosted on Google Video so it can be embedded in the frontpage. (YouTube won't do it) Second things is that I like to have a high quality version of the video as "source". The kernel panic video has copyrighted music in it, how do we deal with that?
Another thing is the not so great graphics on the site, some people have made a mock-up but I had no time to follow up on them and make them contribute something real. Especially the banner needs some better stuff. So if you can hunt them down and demand a solid contribution so all these people stop whining about the looks.
Then we have some JavaScript work from MelTraX that he may like to finish.
AF likes to have his logo in the banner, I like mine, we settled on a poll on the site but we had no time to do this.

Ok, these are all very down to earth suggestions for you to work on, but in the end it's all about "Leading discussions about the site content". Getting people with the necessary skills to contribute on the right things so we can launch the site.
Last thing, know that there is this document General Spring Site Documentation it contains all the documentation available for the site at this moment.
Chapter 2 is about processes, it's basically talk about the idea first, implement and document it second and then let people check it. It's not required to work like that but it makes things easy if people do.
Chapter 3 is about the requirements of people that use the site, may be interesting if you decide to describe the about and development pages.
Chapter 4 is about the technical back-end, not that important if you focus on the front-end right now.

Anyway, can you do something with this?

[clericvash]

Can i ask you don't use so bright colours? I had to highlight over that blue to read it hehe.

I will always ask in this forum whenever i plan to implement any text or code to get user and spring developer input.

Right i will work on the frontend, if you give me a roadmap of things to do, i will get on it. Do i need to use subversion for my work?

From my understanding you want the new website available in many languages correct?
An easy way to do that is to have a languages folder, and based on what language the user has selected include a file for example "languages/english.php" which has a set of $lang['about'] = "spring is a rts engine" string which are used through the website. When a user selects a language give him a cookie which keeps his language selection.

[AF]

As I udnerstand it the majority fo opinions where either for mine to replace your logo, or for some neuralize work.

[Tim Blokdijk]

Can i ask you don't use so bright colours? I had to highlight over that blue to read it hehe.
Sorry
I will always ask in this forum whenever i plan to implement any text or code to get user and spring developer input.
You don't have to "ask", inform others is a better term. We need to know what you like to change and why so we can comment on it. You never need real approval of anybody.
Right i will work on the frontend, if you give me a roadmap of things to do, i will get on it. Do i need to use subversion for my work?
You have to lead, the things to do are listed in my previous post, if you even make code changes then those need to be made in svn yes. But I don't expect you to make code changes in this role.

From my understanding you want the new website available in many languages correct?
An easy way to do that is to have a languages folder, and based on what language the user has selected include a file for example "languages/english.php" which has a set of $lang['about'] = "spring is a rts engine" string which are used through the website. When a user selects a language give him a cookie which keeps his language selection.
I already have the translation system done, it uses a mysql table to store the strings for the localizations, language detection needs some more work on my part but will work via the "Content-Negotiation" mod for Apache.

As I udnerstand it the majority fo opinions where either for mine to replace your logo, or for some neuralize work.

Can you pick this up with clericvash? As now he is going to lead the content side.

[AF]

Code: Select all

Error C2973: "@Tim Blokdjik:" declaration not found in thread: Ambiguous post reference

Tim, I would advise that fillibustering is not an effective means of attack when used upon yourself. Your site project has been muddled up so much that I doubt anyone is sure as to what the procedures are what your actually doing and whose responsibility is what.

[clericvash]

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Error C2973: "@Tim Blokdjik:" declaration not found in thread: Ambiguous post reference

Tim, I would advise that fillibustering is not an effective means of attack when used upon yourself. Your site project has been muddled up so much that I doubt anyone is sure as to what the procedures are what your actually doing and whose responsibility is what.

I have to agree with AF here, if you want people to participate you need to tell me exactly what you want me to lead? Am i doing content? For what pages? What am i not to change? etc etc. Basically if i have a list of things to improve/changed/edit etc i can probably do all of it in less than a day, no joke. I do websites in my sleep i swear hehe.

Strange that i am agreeing with AF on everything recently lol, weird. Anyway..

Also storing all the languages in mysql = bad bad bad, imagine how many mysql queries that is with the amount of visitors we get = high cpu load = server will go pop. You should keep content as much as possible to files, lower bandwith and cpu access, trust me, i learnt the hard way with my projects.

Is there a proper easy to follow guide to using SVN, i am completely new to things like it.

Thanks, look forward to working with you both.

[Tim Blokdijk]

This is a reply to AF but I read your post clericvash.

Owhh, and your actually quite right..
Give me a chance to try and explain why it's actually useful to have procedures in layman├óÔé¼Ôäós terms.

The problems:

- I can only do so much on site development, even if I could dedicate myself 100% to Springs site it would not be enough to develop all features that are requested by the users.
An simple example is that I can only write English and Dutch, if I'm the only person working on the site then a French or German site is impossible. So for other languages I need to work together with others.
- A second problem with only me working on the site is that if I would stop development also all site development would stop.

The fix:

To solve these two problems I'm doing the following things:
1. I made the source available in svn under the gpl.
2. I started to document the way the site works.
3. I developed processes that allow people to work on the site at the same time.

I'm making sense here right?

The problems with the fix:

Now the "problem" with this is that mostly 2 and 3 but 1 also add EXTRA overhead and barriers for other people to participate.
This is TRUE, and I probably spend more time on developing and discussing the processes then that I actually spend on coding the site. The site would have been launched some time ago if I would not have been working on these three points. I'm FULLY aware of this! The extra time spend on this is worthwhile.

Were we are now:

Right now I'm trying to get the processes to work in practice, the problem is that nobody except me understand how they should work. I need a few people that are willing to bare with me while we get trough this difficult point where the processes are transformed from something on paper to something that is actually part of "the way we do things around here". This is bloody hard work as it's EXTRA stuff to do while the reason why is not that clear.

Why the processes:

As the use of svn and documenting things are not debated that much right now I will focus on the 'why' of processes.

Good processes help us to work on the site in an effectively way and in parallel.

Standard development is split up in 4 actions:
Each change to the site is split up in these actions, note that each action can be done by a different person.
1. PLAN
First we plan, talk about the problem, sugest a fix, discuss the fix.
2. DO
Then we make the fix and document it.
3. CHECK
Then we check if the fix is good enough.
4. ACT
If not ok go back to plan/do.
If ok then implement the fix.
(This is right out of the project managers manual, google for it if you like. It's simple and effective but we can make changes to the process where needed.)

If we follow these steps we will gain the following advantages: (but not limited to the following)

- Nobody is doing the same thing as in the planning phase we discuss who is doing what.
- Nobody is spending time doing something that will be discarded as we agreed on what needed to be done in the planning phase.
- Quality is checked in the check phase so nothing is implemented that is not meeting the requirements of people.
- Good documentation is available so others can always pick up on development from another person.
- Developers only have to follow discussions in a few topics and not be scared that important decisions are made in other places.
- People with skills can focus on participation in the part where they are needed.
- Outsiders have an easy time understanding the development process and for example don't have to go to external boards or hidden forums to make a contribution.
- Nothing is off-limits to anybody, you can change anything on the site when following the steps.
- An actual process can be discussed and improved.
- As we use the same processes everybody understands what you mean if something is in the "Planning" phase or in "Check" phase.
- As the processes are from start to end you know for sure that everything that is done will actually lead to a result in the end.

Please ask more questions about this, I like to explain anything that is not clear, or if something is not right I like to fix it.

[Tim Blokdijk]

Clericvash, as you like a clear task:
I like you to prepare the pages for translation into different languages.

For this you have the translation page here http://newspring.clan-sy.com/translation
The "development" language is the language you use to describe the strings in dead simple English so non-native English speakers understand it.
The final English text is derived from this "development" language just like all other languages. So, you write the development language and find others to translate that into other languages.
Not all text can be translated, some is still hard coded, those strings need to be put into the translation system so they can be translated.
Can you work this out?

Note that you are going to make changes in the dev. env. if changes to the data in the database need to be preserved you have to tell me clearly!

It's currently working with mysql, I hope to limit the load with caching.

I can explain svn if you're on Linux?

[AF]

I believe that clericvash is right about using file based translation instead of mysql, after all why do most other php sites use file based translations? Its faster than an sql call anyway.

I also think that right now our focus should be to fix the site and replace this one. Maintenance processes and translation are a secondary objective and aren't required for a functioning site to replace this one. After all this site has performed ok for 3 years with no translations or maintenance procedures outside the simple "fix it when it breaks" paradigm.

Its far too much far too soon all at once, and I get the feeling your viewing the project in a monolithic manner. We don't need translation or flashy videos on the frontpage they should be deprioritized. Working on non essential features early on in a project can cause design issues as you probably know.

[clericvash]

Agreed, we should start with the basics.

But to be honest i won't work on anything unless the forum actually gets a clean-up AF you may have noticed to use someone elses word that topic on moderation makes me "emo", i won't work on the website if it is just going to be used like it currently is by a load of trolls and nobs who get away with everything.

I love the game, but if the forum is going to continue how it is i will play the game and not bother with the website and forum at all. I want to contribute, but i don't want to deal with all the peoples attitudes on here.

[AF]

Agreed, I have a lot of stuff todo and unviersity picking up again, if I put work into somethign I need to see that its worthwhile and I get returns but at the moment the whole things a mess and whatever I do will take a long time to wade through and in the longrun have little effect.

Also theres little to show what the plan is save for long winded processes and vague ramblings. Theres no short and snappy action plan making things nice and clear and to the point. How the site is going to be finished is unclear and murky.

[Tim Blokdijk]

You guy's had a few other remarks but this is an important one.

Also theres little to show what the plan is save for long winded processes and vague ramblings. Theres no short and snappy action plan making things nice and clear and to the point. How the site is going to be finished is unclear and murky.

You're right.
I have my own short and snappy action plan in this to do file.
Other then that todo and a few "Site: xyz" and the topic in General Discussion there is *no* practical development plan for the site.
The reason I like to have someone help "lead discussions (about the site content)" and "planning changes" is to end up with a more practical list of things to fix.

The "General Spring Site Documentation" (the vague big document) is written from a (strategic) management perspective, that's intentional as it gives >you< the freedom to develop your own "short and snappy action plan" (on a tactical level).
The only thing that big document is doing is stating how we make our own "short and snappy action plan" without getting in each others way.

[Tim Blokdijk]

I believe that clericvash is right about using file based translation instead of mysql, after all why do most other php sites use file based translations? Its faster than an sql call anyway.

Well, it's working now with mysql, but if needed then it can be extend with a file based system at some point. But I would like to see some clear numbers that file based would indeed speed things up before I'm going to code something like that personally.

I also think that right now our focus should be to fix the site and replace this one. Maintenance processes and translation are a secondary objective and aren't required for a functioning site to replace this one. After all this site has performed ok for 3 years with no translations or maintenance procedures outside the simple "fix it when it breaks" paradigm.

Well, I guess that's fair criticism, maybe it's good to have more focus on getting the site launched. Would help to make the discussions more practical.

Its far too much far too soon all at once, and I get the feeling your viewing the project in a monolithic manner. We don't need translation or flashy videos on the frontpage they should be deprioritized. Working on non essential features early on in a project can cause design issues as you probably know.

Ok, so you suggest to cut back on features for now?
What would you suggest? What issues would be critically to fix before launch and what can wait?

[Tim Blokdijk]

Agreed, we should start with the basics.

Ok, what's going to be the basics e.g. what's important and what can wait?
Personally I like to fix the character encoding problem with phpbb. I did not write a lot about it yet but it's quite a bitch to get nailed down. Simply put I like to use Unicode across the site but phpbb uses local encodings.

But to be honest i won't work on anything unless the forum actually gets a clean-up AF you may have noticed to use someone elses word that topic on moderation makes me "emo", i won't work on the website if it is just going to be used like it currently is by a load of trolls and nobs who get away with everything.

I love the game, but if the forum is going to continue how it is i will play the game and not bother with the website and forum at all. I want to contribute, but i don't want to deal with all the peoples attitudes on here.

I just don't read it all, I focus on a few topics that have my personal interest the rest is "mark forum read". Swiftspear and the gang have shown to be capable of restoring the forum when needed. Topics like this always seem to stay on-topic more or less.

[clericvash]

For one thing the files over mysql is an ancient discussion. Each time a person comes to the website they will have to have a new mysql_query to access the language which creates a lot of overhead for a CPU. Including files as simple as it sounds, a file gets linked and can be used. A simple matter of err numbers? I dunno i just wanted to use that line before

I don't know about the character encoding in phpBB, it would need to be asked on the actual phpBB forums.

For features we should get main content (the homepage with dev news, community news etc), screenshots page, video page, and a more complete wiki.

After that language and other little bits can be implemented, we need the basics to start on, too much too soon = collaboration disaster.

The "General Spring Site Documentation" file is way way way too indepth for a website design and coding. I have never used something like it and we certainly don't need something like it.

[Tim Blokdijk]

I'm working on the phpbb character encoding thing so that's covered.

Can you work out in more detail what's included in the basics and what can wait. I mean the language stuff can wait but what are the "other little bits". Also you're writing about a "video page" what is that going to be? What needs to be done to get a more complete wiki?

[AF]

By basics I mean get everything we currently have here in the new site.so that we can make it live and have exactly the same features.

As for your processes I think actual management would do us well using something like Trac for the site. It'd streamline the whole whats left to do process bugs feature requests, and the whole process would be far easier to manage and much easier to visualize. There'd be far less documentation needed to explain things and we can set out milestones to show progress.

An example fo a working Trac setup:

http://www.springlobby.info

And if Trac is best suited, Mantis would still be an improvement over a ragtag collection of documents spread across an SVN.

I would also argue that any changes to svn should automatically update the development site as soon as its committed.