Map making "challenge" for well, mappers

Map making "challenge" for well, mappers

Discuss maps & map creation - from concept to execution to the ever elusive release.

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Relinquished
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Map making "challenge" for well, mappers

Post by Relinquished »

Some of you probably know/have heard of/etc. the mod I made called "Covert-Ops". The good news is that it's dead and never coming back. The bad news, I'm starting and well into development of a new mod called "Conflicting Worlds". The goal of the mod is to be a uniqe-ish mod for spring. It's principle is the same as Covert-Ops, just way less suckiness in general.

I'm not saying any more about it because I don't want people taking ALL of my ideas until it's released. For now, here are a few screen shots for inspiration. Take extreme note of the scale.

Now, here's the "challenge" I'm wondering if anyone can accomplish for me. The mod is bound for release by the end of september this year at the latest, and with it, I would like at least one mod-specific map so people can really play the mod to it's full potential.

I need a/some map(s) that takes the mod's scale into consideration, meaning strategically placed metal deposits, strategic locations that you'd want to hold even if there isn't any metal, smartly placed geothermals, etc. It also has to take into account the fact that there is going to be navy, air, and land warfare and that the battles will be for bases, positions, and just defeating the army on a battlefield. The bigger the map, the better. If someone is capable of making a 30x30 to a 40x40 somewhere that would be great. So you all know, the mex output for each "base" (not per player, just anywhere you could make a base due to abundant resources) should be around 15. I would love it if it's not a symetrical map, the way the mod is meant to be played is on choose start locations, between 2 and 5 players, and no start boxes. That way everyone has no idea where everyone else is, if it happens that two people start on each other, you can just restart the game. All "bases" must have roughly the same amount of metal output or everyone will always start on each other. Finally, do not forget the scale of the mod. Metal spots in one base should not be as far apart as in OTA, simply due to the travel time. However, between bases, there should be a fairly long travel time that the player would have to think about, air drops are a huge part of the mod, using them properly (and also not overusing them) is highly important. Planes move about 6 to 8 times as fast as land units, and ships are going to be big. This mod is not about expanding across the map in any way. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me on the client or by email (apurelinquished@hotmail.com). I will be releasing a "mappers version" of the mod just so anyone interested in trying can download it to try it on the map.

Finally, the mod isn't complete, there won't be any air or navy units in the mod, and not all buildings and land units are in it, there are just enough to give you the feel. Of course I will give you all the credit for the map, I'm only asking this of the comunity because I suck at making textures :P. Oh, also, the map needs to be done by the time the mod comes out if possible :).

If anyone is interested, good luck and thank you. Released: CW:D For Mappers

[Edit] Since this isn't an "official" release of the mod, I would prefer if everyone kept it semi-quiet. Everyone is free to download and try it, just try your best not to make this seem too huge.

[Edit again] I'm adding something. I'd prefer if there weren't defined start locations, just so the "pick anywhere you want" thing would work well.
Last edited by Relinquished on 19 Aug 2007, 03:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Neddie
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Post by Neddie »

Hurm. I'll think about it. I think my machine can handle a large map, especially if I do the texture by hand.
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

It doesn't have to be big, it just really gives the mod an awesome feel. Thanks for considering it :-)
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REVENGE
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Post by REVENGE »

Roxas suggested an idea to me similar to this, but for FF. The huge map is part of it: imagine a gigantic map with space and land elements. You start out on space platforms and work your way to "invade" a central planet. What happens is that you use movement types to force FF starships to travel only in "space" and not on land, an then you have to deploy other stuff like a BA commander on the "planet" to take control of it.

Of course, this sort of thing wouldn't integrate very well, and that's where I hope lua can come in.

Using lua, I'm hoping we can do stuff like this: you fight on a map to take control of a certain area with a unit that acts as a gate. The gate unit then "teleports" you to a new area [say a planet], and what actually happens is that an lua script takes the units you teleport along with a player, and deploys them on a new map, or an isolated area of the same mapfile.
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

roxas' idea will fail.

A map large enough to support that with that many units on it will ultimately fail with current hardware. ESP if there are more then 2 players.
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LOrDo
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Post by LOrDo »

I'm gonna be negative right now and say this so there are no surprises to you:
If your mod is unique in any way, its not gonna get played by the Spring community. And a map that big will play at an unplayble FPS for most people.
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

Okay, well in that case just drop it to a 20x20 to a 30x30. It doesn't have to be HUGE, just big. The mod is already 1/5th "normal" size. Download it and see what I mean :P. I don't really mind if not many people play it, I'm mainly doing it for fun anyways, I just think it'd be cool to release a map designed specifically for it.
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

REVENGE wrote:Roxas suggested an idea to me similar to this, but for FF. The huge map is part of it: imagine a gigantic map with space and land elements. You start out on space platforms and work your way to "invade" a central planet. What happens is that you use movement types to force FF starships to travel only in "space" and not on land, an then you have to deploy other stuff like a BA commander on the "planet" to take control of it.

Of course, this sort of thing wouldn't integrate very well, and that's where I hope lua can come in.

Using lua, I'm hoping we can do stuff like this: you fight on a map to take control of a certain area with a unit that acts as a gate. The gate unit then "teleports" you to a new area [say a planet], and what actually happens is that an lua script takes the units you teleport along with a player, and deploys them on a new map, or an isolated area of the same mapfile.
Have you tried Conflicting Worlds? I think if there was a map even 20x20 designed specifically for the mod it'd be awesome. It already feels like a cross between TA and something like total war. If LUA could do something like that eventually, with this mod you could have 4 or 5 planets on the "normal" map, then you could have each individual map a 30x30 or something...that would be awesome. I do know it's probably not going to happen though.
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

would grts_rivervalley work?
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

I've never played it, I'll give it a try. The most important thing is really the metal layout though, just because of the scale of the mod.

[edit] Okay, I just tried it out. That map is almost perfect for it, the only things that would make it better would be:
1) Right now, 3 spots gives you about 4.1 metal, if 3 spots would give you 11 to 14 somewhere that would be perfect. Basically tripling the max metal number from 0.9 to 2.7 would be all that's needed. Okay, I just tried it again, I think a max metal value of 2 would be best.
2) The metal layout right now is almost perfect, just in between groups of 3 there isn't enough space. I think it would be perfect if overall there were half the amount of metal groups, but every group had 3 to 5 spots in it, if you know what I mean, so overall the same amount of spots, just further apart. That way players would have to actually consider expanding to there because of the travel time, but getting it would also be a big advantage.
3) It would be awesome if the metal was layed out somehow so that there were no clearly defined start positons. There could be some groups of 5, so starting there would give you more metal, just you know you're going to have to defend yourself well to hold it, while starting on a group with 2 or 3 in the corner is better because no one really wants such little metal, but you also wouldn't have much to build off of.

But yah, it's actually the best map, that I've seen/played, for the mod so far, if you wouldn't mind tweaking it or sending me the files so I could that would be awesome.
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REVENGE
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Post by REVENGE »

smoth wrote:roxas' idea will fail.

A map large enough to support that with that many units on it will ultimately fail with current hardware. ESP if there are more then 2 players.
Yeah that's definitely the problem. I already know how epic phail epic is, so SPLAT.

On another issue...

FIXIT
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

Revenge, seriously yeah, I can go in and write 4 lines that would allow spring to run giagantic assed maps with no slow down. dude, serisously, "FIXIT" requires the players to have good machines also. This is a simple matter like a patch. wow, this is the post I reply to before going to bed. *sighs*

oh well while I am at it I should also write code to neutralize south east asia, end world hunger and housing concerns, educate the masses etc.

There are some things that are simply beyond our current technology.
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

Well, one way to "fix" it would be to just make spring load units about 1/4 the size it does now. That way we wouldn't actually have to make huge maps, so it wouldn't drain nearly as much processing power as it does now. I know it'd probably be hard to change the scale of units now just because all the maps currently out would be virtually useless if it changed suddenly.

The other option of course, is to play my mod >.>. That's about 1/5 "normal" size already :p.
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

it isn't that simple either. Someone once tried it, the thing was called mini spring and it was buggy as all hell. Also by 1/4 the size of everything we also see 75% less detail on the map.
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

Point taken, the best way to make maps seem bigger is honestly probably just to change the mod to be smaller, literally. I know that gives you "less" detail on the map but you can't have everything.

On another note, would making a conflicting worlds release of that map be possible?
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Dragon45
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Post by Dragon45 »

smoth wrote: There are some things that are simply beyond our current technology.
If spring had 30 mil dev budget we could get OMGWTFPWNBBQ shit put in

there is no dev budget

just devs who enjoy intrawebs postings saying 'goodjob' and maybe something fancy to put on a resume


IOW: Lots of shit is possible if you throw enough moneies at it.
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Relinquished wrote:Well, one way to "fix" it would be to just make spring load units about 1/4 the size it does now. That way we wouldn't actually have to make huge maps, so it wouldn't drain nearly as much processing power as it does now. I know it'd probably be hard to change the scale of units now just because all the maps currently out would be virtually useless if it changed suddenly.

The other option of course, is to play my mod >.>. That's about 1/5 "normal" size already :p.
The problem with maps isn't as much the display size, as it is limitation in the path finding engine. Pathfinding reads the map geometry and makes it's calculations based on the output from that. Expanding the maps doesn't only effect the visual quality of the map inversely, it means path finding renders the map in less detail, causing many weird errors. Now, you could just increase the path finding rendering detail on the map, but path finding rendering is acctually the main performance problem with the current maps, so you still run into exactly the same performance walls.

That being said, pathfinding in spring is probably rendering it's calculations in higher detail than it needs to be, especially for larger units.
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

Good to know :P. Like I said a second ago though, the scale right now is prefectly fine. It's just that the mod I'm making is small (really small) so I kinda want to have at least ONE map designed for it, and I think grts_rivervalley would be perfect with a few minor adjustments.
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

As for grts rivervalley, I am taking a two day break from spring. I need to do school stuff. Spacing the mex spots out is not a problem, I have been wanting to do a little work on the map anyway :P
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Relinquished
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Post by Relinquished »

That's fine, and thanks a lot for doing that. I can't wait to test it out, I've played a few games the way it is and it plays great, once the metal is upped a bit and spread out more it'll be awesome for the mod. Thanks again :-).
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