Welcome to reality. Algorithmic balance always fails.
In BA flash are countered by LLT and Janus/levelers. Flash are the counter to missle trucks and stumpies. Every T1 vehical has 2 units that they counter and 2 units that counter them, with the exception of the specialists, like the raider, which die easily to many units, but if not accounted for will do much more than their worth in damage. That's the way it's supposed to be.
T2 and T3 balance in BA is just weird. It's somewhat sensical though since the cost of the T2 fac has been raised exorbitantly to the point where it's barely even feasible to get them in 1v1 games.
Is this an accurate assessment of BA 1vs1s?
Moderator: Moderators
-
Tim-the-maniac
- Posts: 250
- Joined: 22 Jul 2006, 19:58
Problem: flashes are countered by barely-mobile units that they can simply evade. In other words: if map is hyper-chokepointy, worry about counters. Otherwise: use flashes.SwiftSpear wrote:Welcome to reality. Algorithmic balance always fails.
In BA flash are countered by LLT and Janus/levelers. Flash are the counter to missle trucks and stumpies. Every T1 vehical has 2 units that they counter and 2 units that counter them, with the exception of the specialists, like the raider, which die easily to many units, but if not accounted for will do much more than their worth in damage. That's the way it's supposed to be.
T2 and T3 balance in BA is just weird. It's somewhat sensical though since the cost of the T2 fac has been raised exorbitantly to the point where it's barely even feasible to get them in 1v1 games.
-
SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Well... I'm seeing alot of players ignoring flash entirely on maps that are fairly wide open. Janus and levelers aren't stuck in spot, and it only takes a moment to set up an LLT nest virtually anywhere. Comparatively, if you go stumpies you have something that counters to janus, missle truck, and LLT. It's as fast as a flash and does tonnes of DPS in decent numbers, only slightly lower. Ya, playing comet catcher you will probably always see a fair bit of flash tanks... but realistically, that map is fugging huge, it should not be our balancing meter stick. Flash aren't overpowered on most of the tourny maps, I watch people playing them all the time.Pxtl wrote:Problem: flashes are countered by barely-mobile units that they can simply evade. In other words: if map is hyper-chokepointy, worry about counters. Otherwise: use flashes.SwiftSpear wrote:Welcome to reality. Algorithmic balance always fails.
In BA flash are countered by LLT and Janus/levelers. Flash are the counter to missle trucks and stumpies. Every T1 vehical has 2 units that they counter and 2 units that counter them, with the exception of the specialists, like the raider, which die easily to many units, but if not accounted for will do much more than their worth in damage. That's the way it's supposed to be.
T2 and T3 balance in BA is just weird. It's somewhat sensical though since the cost of the T2 fac has been raised exorbitantly to the point where it's barely even feasible to get them in 1v1 games.
Balance fails - you just need to make the attempt.
This is the method I've used in many projects, mainly pen & paper strategy and roleplaying...
1. Develop a conceptual framework (See CA role-based ideas, etcetera)
2. Implement framework in universe.
3. Start limited internal test.
4. Brainstorm factors involved, adjust based on limited test.
5. Repeat 3 & 4 until you can model numerically or physically, usually with an equation.
6. Use model to rebalance as needed.
7. Start unlimited external test.
8. Start limited expanded test.
9. Repeat 7 & 8 until you can collect all major feedback, adjust the model and revise.
10. Take a break.
11. Release.
12. Consider feedback during public release as an extension of step 7, do steps 9 through 11 as necessary.
This is the method I've used in many projects, mainly pen & paper strategy and roleplaying...
1. Develop a conceptual framework (See CA role-based ideas, etcetera)
2. Implement framework in universe.
3. Start limited internal test.
4. Brainstorm factors involved, adjust based on limited test.
5. Repeat 3 & 4 until you can model numerically or physically, usually with an equation.
6. Use model to rebalance as needed.
7. Start unlimited external test.
8. Start limited expanded test.
9. Repeat 7 & 8 until you can collect all major feedback, adjust the model and revise.
10. Take a break.
11. Release.
12. Consider feedback during public release as an extension of step 7, do steps 9 through 11 as necessary.
Flash tanks and Instigators are indeed the first port of call so far as aggressor units go in most BA games. This is for several obvious reasons, the first of which being that after the jeffy/weasel they are the cheapest t1 vehicles that can be used to raid and destroy enemy structures/units as well as defend against those of the opponent.
They are reliable more or less all round so far as t1 vehicles go. You will rarely get away with starting with stumpys or raiders, firstly because the cost is higher so you get less mobile units for your metal. Secondly, their weapon class is unpredictable and inaccurate against fast units (jeffy/weasel/flash), and lastly because they cost a rough amount of energy which is scarce early game. This does not mean flash/gator are overpowered and stumpy/raider are underpowered. The former just happen to be more suitable, reliable and adaptable early game, and you get more of them for resources spent. This last point is totally key. If you have more units for the same resources spent, you have more options and more guns, which plays a huge factor in the combined effectiveness of units and the adaptability of use.
The way TA unit tiers are designed literally forces an element of progression through the units. Cheapest--->Most Expensive. Clearly one way to make other units viable at ALL stages of the game would be to structure the units so that there are several which cost similar amounts of resources but have differing attributes.
Moreover, flash tanks/instigators are inherently easier to use than pretty much all other units, giving satisfactory performance with low micro compared to kbots and other vehicles. Still, due to their movement attributes, players with better micro can, you could say, imbalance flash.
To put this more clearly: Even when you have units which are "cost for cost" balanced, so long as you have an RTS in which micro and/or skill plays a large part, the PLAYERS THEMSELVES will cause some degree of imbalance, simply because some will possess a degree of execution ability which surpasses that of others. Tired sort of hinted at this in his chat about unit speed.
Spring TA mods also inherently have quite linear game balance. They are no where close to being balanced in a rock-paper-scissors fashion which largely contributes to why players can use only a small percentage of different units for whole games.
People often mis-perceive Tech 2 units as being ineffective against Flash and Gator. This is NOT the case. Partly the reason for this is that frequently, players who attempt to tech up will begin to lose whilst doing so and be finished off shortly after. This is not because T2 units are useless. This is because T2 labs are fucking expensive to build and quite frankly are rarely a viable option in a close 1v1 game until a situation arises where the player who is teching has established strong control over particular areas of the map. It is worth noting again that to use ranged units effectively requires the player to dictate the play more so than the simple swarm-and-destroy tactic used with flash/gator, and thus, also requires more thought and more micro.
Moreover, Spring players are largely complete douches and don't understand that ranged units should be used to compliment guess what - their range. This means DO NOT send your rockos, thuds, samsons, warriors, janus, riot tanks, bulldogs, reapers, gollies, banishers, lugers, morties, mavericks etc etc straight into a swarm of flash or leave them open to being swarmed, then moan that they are crap.
CA is a project which has a lot of interesting concepts and new additions to gameplay mechanics and I look forward to playing this mod more in future. Tired, stick at it, I am interested to see the resultant manifestation of your fucked up approach(IMO) in a playable mod, and hope you consider the points I brought up in this post if you haven't already.
-Execution impact on balance increases with fast cheap units, units with -larger range, and high unit count.
-Linear balance encourages single unit spam
-Cost structure currently favours/forces use of certain units at different times in game.
-EMG/laser units give more dependable results
-Tech 2 lab cost factors into opinion on T2 effectiveness
To conclude this masterpiece with my opinion, I think that flash/gator in BA is reasonably balanced in the sense that there ARE effective unit and strategic counters and both of these light tanks are well balanced against each other. However, that is not to say that there are not many other ways of balancing which could offer more enjoyable, less repetitive and more varied gameplay and I strongly support (in the sense of giving you guys informal kudos) those of you who are attempting to make your own variants/mods, and would also encourage the community to be more open minded and willing to try out these alternatives.
They are reliable more or less all round so far as t1 vehicles go. You will rarely get away with starting with stumpys or raiders, firstly because the cost is higher so you get less mobile units for your metal. Secondly, their weapon class is unpredictable and inaccurate against fast units (jeffy/weasel/flash), and lastly because they cost a rough amount of energy which is scarce early game. This does not mean flash/gator are overpowered and stumpy/raider are underpowered. The former just happen to be more suitable, reliable and adaptable early game, and you get more of them for resources spent. This last point is totally key. If you have more units for the same resources spent, you have more options and more guns, which plays a huge factor in the combined effectiveness of units and the adaptability of use.
The way TA unit tiers are designed literally forces an element of progression through the units. Cheapest--->Most Expensive. Clearly one way to make other units viable at ALL stages of the game would be to structure the units so that there are several which cost similar amounts of resources but have differing attributes.
Moreover, flash tanks/instigators are inherently easier to use than pretty much all other units, giving satisfactory performance with low micro compared to kbots and other vehicles. Still, due to their movement attributes, players with better micro can, you could say, imbalance flash.
To put this more clearly: Even when you have units which are "cost for cost" balanced, so long as you have an RTS in which micro and/or skill plays a large part, the PLAYERS THEMSELVES will cause some degree of imbalance, simply because some will possess a degree of execution ability which surpasses that of others. Tired sort of hinted at this in his chat about unit speed.
Spring TA mods also inherently have quite linear game balance. They are no where close to being balanced in a rock-paper-scissors fashion which largely contributes to why players can use only a small percentage of different units for whole games.
People often mis-perceive Tech 2 units as being ineffective against Flash and Gator. This is NOT the case. Partly the reason for this is that frequently, players who attempt to tech up will begin to lose whilst doing so and be finished off shortly after. This is not because T2 units are useless. This is because T2 labs are fucking expensive to build and quite frankly are rarely a viable option in a close 1v1 game until a situation arises where the player who is teching has established strong control over particular areas of the map. It is worth noting again that to use ranged units effectively requires the player to dictate the play more so than the simple swarm-and-destroy tactic used with flash/gator, and thus, also requires more thought and more micro.
Moreover, Spring players are largely complete douches and don't understand that ranged units should be used to compliment guess what - their range. This means DO NOT send your rockos, thuds, samsons, warriors, janus, riot tanks, bulldogs, reapers, gollies, banishers, lugers, morties, mavericks etc etc straight into a swarm of flash or leave them open to being swarmed, then moan that they are crap.
CA is a project which has a lot of interesting concepts and new additions to gameplay mechanics and I look forward to playing this mod more in future. Tired, stick at it, I am interested to see the resultant manifestation of your fucked up approach(IMO) in a playable mod, and hope you consider the points I brought up in this post if you haven't already.
-Execution impact on balance increases with fast cheap units, units with -larger range, and high unit count.
-Linear balance encourages single unit spam
-Cost structure currently favours/forces use of certain units at different times in game.
-EMG/laser units give more dependable results
-Tech 2 lab cost factors into opinion on T2 effectiveness
To conclude this masterpiece with my opinion, I think that flash/gator in BA is reasonably balanced in the sense that there ARE effective unit and strategic counters and both of these light tanks are well balanced against each other. However, that is not to say that there are not many other ways of balancing which could offer more enjoyable, less repetitive and more varied gameplay and I strongly support (in the sense of giving you guys informal kudos) those of you who are attempting to make your own variants/mods, and would also encourage the community to be more open minded and willing to try out these alternatives.
Last edited by DemO on 05 Aug 2007, 03:31, edited 2 times in total.
Oh and, on the subject of balance, use of Tech 2 and how gator/flash spam wins everything, you'll find this replay rather comical:
210 gators? 15 Gollies? YOU GOT NOTHIN ON THESE HEROES BITCH
210 gators? 15 Gollies? YOU GOT NOTHIN ON THESE HEROES BITCH
We would have had one, but no, you had to live in a region which is afflicted by thunderstorms. That said, I think out of all the people in that tournament, we had a very good showing.SOMEONE GIVE THIS MAN A MEDAL RIGHT NOW
It's called cutting to the end.LOL WUT
We were playing?You've won the prize. gg
The process of balancing always ends in failure - you can't continue it indefinitely, and you can't account for all variables. What I meant in my earlier post is that you need to reach for balance, but you have no way in hell of wrapping your hand around it and plucking it from the stars with fanfare by any band, even Isaac's vaunted Pantera.
i dono ive heard that chuck norris can divide by zero and find the midpoint of infinity maybe he can do itneddiedrow wrote:The process of balancing always ends in failure - you can't continue it indefinitely, and you can't account for all variables. What I meant in my earlier post is that you need to reach for balance, but you have no way in hell of wrapping your hand around it and plucking it from the stars with fanfare by any band, even Isaac's vaunted Pantera.
-
SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
The reason you lose if you start stumpies is because as soon as your opponent sees stumpies they will spam flash, which are quick and easy to spam, and flash, being the counter to stumpies, will own you.
Stumpies are an assault tank, they are good for killing comm, structures, and slow units. Flash are a skirmish tank, they are good for killing slow units, and assault units. Flash fail at base pushes unless you can eliminate the enemies mobile military first, which will be difficult if thier mobile military contains the flashslayer janus/leveler units. Flashes cannot destroy LLT lines until the LLTs are abandoned, however a equal force of stumpies will drive through a full LLT line supported by missle trucks or janus effortlessly, the opponent must have skirmishers to counter them.
Stumpies are an assault tank, they are good for killing comm, structures, and slow units. Flash are a skirmish tank, they are good for killing slow units, and assault units. Flash fail at base pushes unless you can eliminate the enemies mobile military first, which will be difficult if thier mobile military contains the flashslayer janus/leveler units. Flashes cannot destroy LLT lines until the LLTs are abandoned, however a equal force of stumpies will drive through a full LLT line supported by missle trucks or janus effortlessly, the opponent must have skirmishers to counter them.
-
1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
