Is this an accurate assessment of BA 1vs1s?

[KingRaptor]

Tired and I were discussing the idea that raiders should move slow enough for other units to catch them, and he said this:

[11:26:18 PM] <Tired> Why should 80 metal in Weasels usually get to kill 500 metal in enemy stuff, unless they're countered by, you guessed it, more Weasels?
[11:26:37 PM] <Tired> None of your business, evil enemy of proper costing!
[11:26:48 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> "Why should 80 metal in Weasels usually get to kill 500 metal in enemy stuff"
[11:27:04 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> Unless your name is PRO_rANDY and/or your opponent is a total n00b, that never happens. ~~
[11:27:29 PM] <Tired> Nonsense - most of their 1337 1v1s end that way inside of 3 minutes.
[11:27:35 PM] <Tired> Playing on's just a time killer.
[11:27:59 PM] <Tired> Seen Randy get trashed by that too, for that matter. Oo

Discuss thread title.

[quote][11:29:05 PM] <Tired> Think about it. "Oh, crap - your Weasels got around me. gg"
[11:29:38 PM] <Tired> "Oh, crap! A lightning fast Gator snuck in with them.. If only my Commander could catch up!"
[11:29:39 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> That's why most people build an LLT or two. *_*
[11:29:49 PM] <Tired> Well ya know what?
[11:29:52 PM] <Tired> That's ass.
[11:30:11 PM] <Tired> If they want lightning fast raiders, I'll make a n00b hack for TA with 300 metal weasels that move at 8 speed.
[11:35:00 PM] <Tired> That's gonna get old. ~~
[11:35:34 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> Raiders trade range for speed. That's the way it's always been. oO
[11:36:10 PM] <Tired> Range for speed's a fair deal anyway as range is largely meaningless in the face of fast enough speed.
[11:36:14 PM] <Tired> Thank you tier 2 air.
[11:37:04 PM] <Tired> So not only is speed valuable in its own right for responding to threats and opportunities and reinforcing lines, it's valuable for closing range quickly and surrounding the enemy.
[11:37:24 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> Isn't that, like, the whole point?
[11:37:29 PM] <Tired> Which's why my 20% slower, 140 metal Flash Tanks can still kill off Bulldogs metal for metal.
[11:37:34 PM] <Tired> It is.
[11:37:45 PM] <Tired> Just means that it's not a simple range for speed relationship.
[11:37:56 PM] <Tired> Because speed has both combat and non-combat purposes.
[/quote]
[quote][11:38:47 PM] <Tired> Guess which does better against DDMs in my mod. Slow, super strong Sumos or fast, expansive Flash Tanks.
[11:39:22 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> I'll bite. Which?
[11:39:24 PM] <Tired> It's STILL the fast, expensive Flash Tanks, because those units have much better dps for their cost, and close fast enough to use most of it.
[11:39:47 PM] <Tired> Something like 250 dps or 1,000.
[11:40:14 PM] <Tired> Don't even ask for Annihilators.
[11:40:19 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> You're starting to act like Flashes can kill anything. oO
[11:40:26 PM] <Tired> They can in BA.
[11:40:32 PM] <Tired> In TA, they've got more limitations.
[11:40:40 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> Which fares batter against its own cost in HLLTs or Levelers - said Sumos or Flashes? ~~
[11:40:54 PM] <Tired> In BA, the only things stopping them are pathing or other units that've been specifically OPed as well to combat them.
[11:41:20 PM] <Tired> Which's bullshit, and why only about 25% of the combat units in BA are usable.
[11:41:35 PM] <Tired> Stop Flash Tanks with Zippers sometime if you don't believe me.
[11:41:57 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> What? oO
[11:42:14 PM] <Tired> Start up a BA game.
[11:42:18 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> It's a well known fact that Zippers are fail in BA.
[11:42:29 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Thuds, then.
[11:42:37 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Rockos, then.
[11:42:46 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Beamers, then.
[11:42:52 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Mavericks, then.
[11:42:59 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Cans, then.
[11:43:08 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Dragon Maws, then.
[11:43:24 PM] <Tired> Alright, stop them with Vipers, then. Oh, wait - Vipers just got a random upgrade.
[11:43:40 PM] <Tired> Ditto for Juggs. Oh, wait - now Juggs are unstoppable. Well, crap.
[11:43:55 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Banshees, then.
[11:44:18 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Reapers, then.
[11:44:32 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Goliaths, then (even counting their AoE for reload time).
[11:44:49 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with HLTs, then (without blocking pathing).
[11:45:18 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Pyros, then.
[11:45:26 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Zeuses, then.
[11:45:36 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Gimps, then.
[11:45:43 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Pelicans, then.
[11:45:50 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Banishers, then.
[11:45:51 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> Now you're just being ridiculous. ~~
[11:46:03 PM] <Tired> Gimps are amphibious Cans.
[11:46:13 PM] <Tired> Tell me a Can shouldn't be able to stop Flash Tansk.
[11:46:34 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Panthers, then.
[11:46:50 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop them with Bladewings and Shadows, then.
[/quote]
[quote][11:47:12 PM] <Tired> Alright. Stop 5 with a Commander, then. [11:47:29 PM]
<Tired> 500 metal > 2,500 metal (and that's a huge discount) Commander.
[11:47:31 PM] <Tired> Makes sense.
[11:47:35 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> What? oO - Dgun does it easily
[11:47:49 PM] <Tired> First, try it with a Limited D-gun.
[11:47:54 PM] <Tired> Second, try it against a good microer.
[11:48:09 PM] <Tired> Factor in average lag for overseas games....
[11:48:42 PM] <Tired> D-gun has a 1 second reload timer.
[11:48:58 PM] <Tired> 5 Flash Tanks need 6 seconds to kill a Comm all firing at once.
[11:48:59 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> The only time I've lost one boy to five Flashes was when I was out of d-gun radius (limit is fail anyway) or E stalling. oO
[11:49:32 PM] <Tired> Who's the best microer you've 1v1ed against?
[11:50:17 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> flopflop I suppose
[11:50:27 PM] <Tired> Which's why I don't 1v1, btw, even though I've at least played the top players now and then.
[11:50:38 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> though I don't recall simply being flash swarmed in any 1v1 I've played
[11:50:50 PM] <Tired> You get Jeffied.
[11:50:53 PM] <Tired> Then you get Flashed.
[11:50:55 PM] <[LCC]KingRaptor> Well, I will admit that most of my 1v1 wins were from making 20 flashes by reclaiming rocks. ~~
[11:50:59 PM] <Tired> Occassionally you'll get bombered.

[/quote]
Discuss BA balance as well.

[Neddie]

This may be news to everybody, but balance is an ideal which you will never reach - I've said it before, I'm saying it again. You strive for it, you seek to approach it, you'll not have it. Tired can critique it, but if he expects to know better than his peers how to rectify it, he is delusional.

To be honest, BA is pretty limited in 1v1 play, but most games are, and to be frank, 1v1 play is not what I enjoy RTS in most of the time. You can lose a commander to five Flash. You can lose a commander to three Stumpy (You're a loser, but there we are). You can seldom lose a commander to eight Banshee.

Oh, and Flop is not a good microer. His play comes primarily from economic macro, and it always has.

[Neddie]

By the way, Tired's assessment is pretty sharp.

[pintle]

Tired is my new hero

[RogerN]

Almost all BA 1v1 matches between veterans are decided by flash spam. I'd estimate 80-90% of the units are flashes, assuming the game gets past the initial weasel stage (which it might not). Huge groups of flash tanks are sent on raiding missions, and opponents counter them with equally huge groups of flashes.

A couple of vets will throw in the occasional stumpy for flare.

If by some strange chance the game manages to reach tech level 2, flash spam is *still* king. A few bulldogs are thrown in as support, but the flash tanks perform most of the work. However, when a 1v1 has progressed to tech 2, it's unlikely to be decided by flash tanks alone. Usually somebody will go air and that'll end the game.

And why not build flash tanks?
- They're cheap
- They're extremely fast
- They have the best DPS per cost in the game
- They have good armor for their cost

The flash tank essentially has no weaknesses other than air power (which shows up only later in 1v1) and short range. But as Tired indicated, even the range disadvantage is overcome by speed. So in fact they have no weaknesses.

For 1v1 play, there are no disadvantages at all to spamming flash tanks. There's no counter except air, and if you start air in a 1v1 you're toast.

[Andrej]

Instead of making fast raiding units slower do it the
CA way and buff LLTs to teh max.

[NOiZE]

levlers
goltiaths
hllt's
llt walls
Dgun
krogoth
Juggernaut
Gators when the gators are retreating from the flashes.
minies
llt combined with hlt
DDM
vipers
Bladewings + other units
bulldogs
reapers


ALL counter flashes if used right

[Sleksa]

flash / gators are the bread and butter of open, medium to big sized maps.

pw/ak are the bread and butter of small/hilly maps.


T2 is the bread and butter of 3v3/4v4 games.


try massing nothing but flash on 4v4 ?

sometime your bound to get up stuffs like janus, levelers, slashers, hlt, tech2, snipers/annis/goliaths/reapers/bulldogs/t2 air/bombers/gunships.

the majority just thinks that flashes can kill bulldogs metal to metal. but what about when the bulldogs are backed up by static llts annis slashers januses/levelers?


what comes to tired's balancing ideas, he made a ca version that took several minutes for flashes to reach the enemy natural expansions on comet. i've lost trust on his balancing ideas since (Altho he is a great player ^^)

[Neddie]

You had me until you said T2 was the bread and butter of team games. You can do a lot with T1 even in a team game, most of the successful SmuG players were heavy T1 team gamers as was about a third of LCC. Half of XHC still uses T1 as their core.

[Sleksa]

but they cant solely depend on them if the game escalates any further.

[manored]

In fact flashes and instigators are overpowered in BA. They are raiding units (or so i suppose) but have been given too much attack power and armor for their price, what makes then work impressively well in battle.

They can be countered by things other than more light tanks tough :) . Dt walls can counter then and their shots wont be able to reach defenses behind, and in case you cant make a barrier some riot tanks should solve.

[Neddie]

but they cant solely depend on them if the game escalates any further.

I can agree with you there. However, if you remove a foe or two in the first fifteen with T1, as they, you and I have and can...

[hunterw]

mines.

[Neddie]

Most people have no idea how to use mines effectively. The number of people who put down continuous lines of mines, E-stalling the whole time...

[flop]

lol @ me being the best microer.
im not bad at micro like neddie claims but most of the other top 1v1 players can usually outmicro me and I have to win on my macro skills.

if theres one thing ba has balanced well, its flash/gator. they still own at cmobat and assaulting lowly defended areas but will get raped by tons of counters as noize said. levelers and warriors are so good at countering flash spam that id almost say they are borderline OP. also MINES FUCKING OWN

[Pxtl]

One possible approach to work around this gameplay would be to cut everything's health in half. The speed of most units got amped during Caydr's "OMG, vehicles suck" phase, which created the problem that units can now close gaps so much faster than they used to... which means that range-limitations are less meaningful than they used to be. A flash used to take a lot more damage crawling into it's firing range.

Now, it's debatable whether this is a problem (it has, in effect, reduced the infamous porcyness of earlier AA games) - but it's hard to deny that the effect is there.

Most people have no idea how to use mines effectively. The number of people who put down continuous lines of mines, E-stalling the whole time...

It's partially a psychological thing - most players don't think of a mine as something that's very micro-intensive. Just drop them and forget.

[pintle]

levlers
goltiaths
hllt's
llt walls
Dgun
krogoth
Juggernaut
Gators when the gators are retreating from the flashes.
minies
llt combined with hlt
DDM
vipers
Bladewings + other units
bulldogs
reapers


ALL counter flashes if used right

you suggest i counter flash spam with (amongst other t2 stuff) a krog!?

From the 14 counters you suggest, 7 are t2 or above, 1 requires an air lab, and 5 are static d-fenz. What are we left with? The other faction's fast assault tank


gg

[flop]

levlers
goltiaths
hllt's
llt walls
Dgun
krogoth
Juggernaut
Gators when the gators are retreating from the flashes.
minies
llt combined with hlt
DDM
vipers
Bladewings + other units
bulldogs
reapers


ALL counter flashes if used right

you suggest i counter flash spam with (amongst other t2 stuff) a krog!?

From the 14 counters you suggest, 7 are t2 or above, 1 requires an air lab, and 5 are static d-fenz. What are we left with? The other faction's fast assault tank


gg

levelers warriors and janus are all great counters to flash spam that are availiable at level one and arent more gator/flash

peewees and aks can also do well on small low metal maps

GOOD FUCKING GAME

[Day]

Lol.

[Dragon45]

Not all units should be useful all the time in every game. There's a lot of special purpose things that only come up in maps, in some situations, etc. that's the way it should be. my idea of 'balance' is not 'all units have to be built every game', its 'all units have a usefulness at some point or another'.

Yes, flash/gator spaemmies is the bread and butter of 1v1s on comet and some other maps. Raiders might get thrown in later as the game progresses, maybe air. This is the set course of action for a number of maps. It doesnt deviate much.
So clearly, the game is unbalanced. Not all units are being used.

Cue Tabula. In the center: opening flashes, slaser spam, to t2 and air and whatever spam can win, be it bertha, adv air, bulldog, sumo, jugg, etc. Set course of action for tabula nad a few other similar maps. It doesnt deviate much.
Clearly, the game is unbalanced. Not all units are being used.

Cue Cooper Hill. AK spam is the way to go now, along with commm advance which spams LLTs, some take hill, and then throw thuds and maybe air in. It doesn't deviate much.
Clearly, the game is unbalanced. Not all units are being used.

Cue Sands of War. Few more options here. Go water, spam decades and skeeters. Go veh, take over other islands with amphib con veh. Go air, airlift comm. Spam ships until game ends.
Clearly, the game is unbalanced. Not all units are being used.


Do you see where im going with this?