Illegal Immigrants

Fanger · Post by **Fanger** » 24 Apr 2007, 01:19

This fails, How many of these stupid threads do we have to have before everyone realizes that POLITICAL DISCUSSION is fail. Look all of you are coming to this thread with preconcieved OPINIONS not facts, you dont have anything to discuss. You are already convinced of your own rightness and you have come here to tell the other doofuses that they are wrong and you are right, you have not come here to try and hash out how it ought to be, or discuss anything, you will not be swayed. This is not a discussion, we cant have a Political discussion. This community has issues discussing mods, and you people want to try and discuss something as controversial and inflamitory as politics. This is ridiculous, can we just ban this sort of discussion, it does nothing but degenerate into flame wars. I have seen several dozen political discussion threads crop up, and NOT a single one has been a civil discussion of anything, in the end they were all angry rants. In such a small secular community discussion of anything is difficult, discussion of something so polarizing as politics is tantimount to fail. Just lock this, it is not going to get anywhere, nothing is being discussed... Perhaps can we ban political discussion, or rename this section to off-topic arguments/flamewars and occasional silly stuff..

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 24 Apr 2007, 01:29

Humm, it was just getting fun, too.

How many? There will never be enough, there are always political questions asked on forums... There is always one guy who drags the thread into flames. Thats why I'm trying to keep insults and affronts to a minimum.

Who said we were discussing, I love seeing other's opinions, and one can easily learn, just from opinions, that theirs could be wrong.

Candleman · Post by **Candleman** » 24 Apr 2007, 02:04

This is why internet "discussions" never work. Everyone is so sure they are correct and have to show everyone else why they are wrong, and no one will ever change their opinion more than slightly, so nothing ever gets done.

"Everyone's talking but no one is saying anything!"

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 24 Apr 2007, 02:19

Where is that quote from?

Candleman · Post by **Candleman** » 24 Apr 2007, 02:21

Oblivion, actually.

SpikedHelmet · Post by **SpikedHelmet** » 24 Apr 2007, 04:50

Woosh, it goes right over everyones' heads..

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 24 Apr 2007, 07:39

AF wrote:Some of the poorest people in the world live in the USA. America is very rich, but all that wealth lies within the hands of a minority. TV never shows 'the other people', you never read about 'the other people', but they exist, and they're far worse off than you can imagine. America has the biggest rich poor gap in the world.

America may have the biggest rich/poor gap in the world, but the poorest Americans are much better off than the poorest Mexicans, or Somalians, or Iraqis. And I think the title of biggest rich/poor gap in the world would belong to a place like the UAE, or some dictatorship somewhere.

That's part of the reason we have an illegal immigration "problem." Even the poorest Americans almost always have food, water, shelter, and sometimes even a halfway decent education.

In America we are so sheltered from the poverty of the world it's scary.

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 24 Apr 2007, 07:46

Why do you think I love my country so much? It's got problems sure as all hell. But it's also got a whole lot of nice things going for it. Now all we need to do is maximize the good things, minimize the bad and be happy.

Sounds simple. Turns hard when you throw in humanity.

KingRaptor · Post by **KingRaptor** » 24 Apr 2007, 09:39

This thread fails on so many counts (besides what Fang said) I don't even know where to start.

1) Illegal immigrants != Immigrants. Anyone who refers to anti-illegal immigrant <anything> as anti-immigrant should be immediately booted from the discussion.

2) Newsflash - Outside of the West, EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD prioritizes its own citizens over those of other nations, and has limits on who can come in and who can't.

3) No country, the US included, owes you anything.

4) There are legal ways to get into the US (although they really could stand to be made much easier). If they don't respect the laws of the country you're immigrating into to even do that, chances are they don't respect the laws enough for anything.

Oh yeah, an extension from number 1:

5) Mexicans != Immigrants != Illegal Immigrants. If you can't even figure that much out, please quit. Now.

6) We have punishments proportionate to the crimes (i.e. we do not hang someone for jaywalking). In other words, simply being an illegal is not a reason to shoot a person - that person must have first committed a crime meriting such a punishment.

7) (related to 5) When people from Mexico commit crimes because their ethnicity (i.e. being Mexican) compels them to do it, it will be acceptable to discriminate against Mexicans. Until then, you can choose to frame the discussion in terms of race, or you can choose to be taken seriously.

8) I don't want to hear a single word about what wonderful, law-abiding citizens illegal immigrants are.

9) When you come to a place, respect the host, even (or rather, especially) if you weren't invited. If you don't respect the host, get lost. (I'm talking about people like this, who break the law and then have the nerve to proclaim it proudly!)

So, what are MY solutions, I hear you ask? Well, here's what I'd do.

1) Prosecute employers of illegal immigrants. Unlike people sneaking over the border to escape poverty, they have no excuse. None whatsoever.

2) Cut the red tape on legal immigration. It should be harder to get in illegally than legally, but right now this isn't the case. A guest worker program or equivalent could be implemented (not open to illegals already here though - you don't get rewarded for jumping queue).

3) If Americans don't work, they shouldn't eat. I don't want to hear "jobs that no Americans will do", because Americans, like anyone else, will do those jobs if it's that or poverty. Foreigners don't get paid to sit around and do nothing, Americans certainly shouldn't.

More to come, unless I get fed up.

tombom · Post by **tombom** » 24 Apr 2007, 09:40

KingRaptor wrote:2) Newsflash - Outside of the West, EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD prioritizes its own citizens over those of other nations, and has limits on who can come in and who can't.

Inside of the west as well right?

KingRaptor · Post by **KingRaptor** » 24 Apr 2007, 09:46

tombom wrote:
KingRaptor wrote:2) Newsflash - Outside of the West, EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD prioritizes its own citizens over those of other nations, and has limits on who can come in and who can't.
Inside of the west as well right?

Yes, but in the US and Western Europe (dunno bout Canada) they tend to be pretty damn lax. I suppose I was exaggerating with implying that immigration limits only exist outside of the West.

Lolsquad_Steven · Post by **Lolsquad_Steven** » 24 Apr 2007, 10:01

When i was 14 i bet i thought i new everything too.

erasmus · Post by **erasmus** » 24 Apr 2007, 11:04

i thought it was all about the right to vote?

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 24 Apr 2007, 13:18

Fanger wrote:This fails, How many of these stupid threads do we have to have before everyone realizes that POLITICAL DISCUSSION is fail. Look all of you are coming to this thread with preconcieved OPINIONS not facts, you dont have anything to discuss. You are already convinced of your own rightness and you have come here to tell the other doofuses that they are wrong and you are right, you have not come here to try and hash out how it ought to be, or discuss anything, you will not be swayed. This is not a discussion, we cant have a Political discussion. This community has issues discussing mods, and you people want to try and discuss something as controversial and inflamitory as politics. This is ridiculous, can we just ban this sort of discussion, it does nothing but degenerate into flame wars. I have seen several dozen political discussion threads crop up, and NOT a single one has been a civil discussion of anything, in the end they were all angry rants. In such a small secular community discussion of anything is difficult, discussion of something so polarizing as politics is tantimount to fail. Just lock this, it is not going to get anywhere, nothing is being discussed... Perhaps can we ban political discussion, or rename this section to off-topic arguments/flamewars and occasional silly stuff..

heil fanger mein fuhrer

Snipawolf · Post by **Snipawolf** » 24 Apr 2007, 13:30

Lolsquad_Steven wrote:When i was 14 i bet i thought i new everything too.

O.o

I don't know squat, and I'll admit it. I may have A's and B's but that doesn't get in my head one bit.

Well, seems like "discussions" are ended. Oh well.

KingRaptor had some interesting points.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 24 Apr 2007, 13:39

Snipawolf wrote:Well, seems like "discussions" are ended

...nah, the fun has just begun, wait for fangers reply, it will be like fireworks on the fourth of july...

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » 24 Apr 2007, 16:48

KingRaptor wrote:I don't want to hear a single word about what wonderful, law-abiding citizens illegal immigrants are.

In 2004, there were 16,137 homicides in the US. That leaves approximately 11,757 homicides committed by American citizens, if the republican senator's statistics were correct. And I suspect that the majority of the ones by illegal immigrants are gang related.

Even the article says that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are law abiding citizens, and they are.

I'm not for illegal immigration, but I think that building a giant wall is a waste of money, and I think our legal immigration policy should be much better. I don't have anything against illegal immigrants in general.

LathanStanley · Post by **LathanStanley** » 24 Apr 2007, 17:16

Lindir The Green wrote:
KingRaptor wrote:I don't want to hear a single word about what wonderful, law-abiding citizens illegal immigrants are.
In 2004, there were 16,137 homicides in the US. That leaves approximately 11,757 homicides committed by American citizens, if the republican senator's statistics were correct. And I suspect that the majority of the ones by illegal immigrants are gang related.

Even the article says that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are law abiding citizens, and they are.

I'm not for illegal immigration, but I think that building a giant wall is a waste of money, and I think our legal immigration policy should be much better. I don't have anything against illegal immigrants in general.

ok mr. numbers.. here is where I excell GREATLY above the average sheep that resides in this country..

stastical analysis.

Lets see, first, # of homicides
Them: 4,380
Us: 11,757

(we have more, sure... let me get to the point..)

Number of residing People (civilians, and illegal immigrants)
Them: ~10,000,000 illegals (source: http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=N ... int&sid=87 )
Us: 293,655,404 (source: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html )

now, stastically... the percentage of people commiting violent acts of crime: (namely homocides.. I could devulge deeper into rape, robberies, vehicular assault etc., but it becomes a mute point)

Them: 4,380/10,000,000 *100 = ~0.0438%
Us: 11,757/293,655,404 *100 = ~.0040037%

now, comparetively lets see how MANY more homocides per person that is...

Total percentage = ~.0478037%

Them ratio = ~0.0438%/.0478037% *100 = 91.625%
Us ratio = ~.0040037%/.0478037% *100 = 8.375%

lets look again, 91.625% more likely to commit crimes of a homocidal nature...

OVER 90% MORE LIKELY!!! STASTICALLY IN HARD UN-DENIABLE FACT!.

fucking ignorant people. read. understand. learn.

Felix the Cat · Post by **Felix the Cat** » 24 Apr 2007, 17:18

alert, I'm contributing again.

Question to consider.

Is illegal immigration immoral?

(Note the distinction between immorality and illegality. Rolling stops/"California stops"/not coming to a full and complete stop at a stop sign are illegal but not, to most drivers, immoral. Cheating on your wife is immoral but not, in most places, illegal.)

LathanStanley · Post by **LathanStanley** » 24 Apr 2007, 17:21

Felix the Cat wrote:alert, I'm contributing again.

Question to consider.

Is illegal immigration immoral?

(Note the distinction between immorality and illegality. Rolling stops/"California stops"/not coming to a full and complete stop at a stop sign are illegal but not, to most drivers, immoral. Cheating on your wife is immoral but not, in most places, illegal.)

Yes, its cheating your country, and the country of others. thus it is both Illegal, and Immoral.

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Illegal Immigrants