Modding - how far?

KDR_11k · Post by **KDR_11k** » 24 Jul 2006, 22:26

Also the rest of us would l├â┬Âike to have those improvements as well (as long as they aren't implemented hackily).

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 24 Jul 2006, 23:09

Making a WC3 mod work well would mean alot more dev work and alot less of what we traditionally call modding. We'd like to open up the modding system a lot but there's ALOT of hardcoded things that shouldn't be hardcoded the way they are that need to be removed and then proper access needs to be implimented for the mod side. To make something that doesn't work within our mod framework you're talking about a much more complicated project then say for example a HL2 mod. Our code isn't an SDK, it's raw game code, and we can't let you break things that currently work to suit your own needs.

That being said, if you are interested in opening up what is possible to modding in Spring then there's alot of members here that are totally behind you in terms of support. Opened up modding capabilities are something we really really want but it's slow going because of the dev work involved in making it happen.

pin_ · Post by **pin_** » 24 Jul 2006, 23:12

I was just testing the ground.

My personal belief is that the Spring/TA gameplay is outdated(my personal opinion, no flamewar please). The main benefit for me would be the huge model database (which otherwise would probably take months to create)

However making a significant modification to the engine, yet keep it Spring compatible means an enormous amout of work. Actually any major Spring modification is not worth it if you're planning to make a rupture form TA. There would be just too many things to change and too little things to keep.

pin_ · Post by **pin_** » 24 Jul 2006, 23:27

SwiftSpear wrote:Making a WC3 mod work well would mean alot more dev work and alot less of what we traditionally call modding. We'd like to open up the modding system a lot but there's ALOT of hardcoded things that shouldn't be hardcoded the way they are that need to be removed and then proper access needs to be implimented for the mod side. To make something that doesn't work within our mod framework you're talking about a much more complicated project then say for example a HL2 mod. Our code isn't an SDK, it's raw game code, and we can't let you break things that currently work to suit your own needs.

Yeah, that sums it up.

Post by **jcnossen** » 24 Jul 2006, 23:51

I think it's simply the wrong time now, if you wait half a year we probably have a lot more flexibility in place with lua support for example. I for example like to see a way to not use any of the current unit code, and write your complete mod in lua. That means you will be able to use the pathfinding/rendering/target finding... everything that is CPU expensive, but write the actual unit code in lua.
My guess it it would be quite possible to write a non-ta mod then.

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 24 Jul 2006, 23:54

lol, well It would be a lot of work but I would convert my mod to that code :)

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 25 Jul 2006, 06:05

pin_ wrote:My personal belief is that the Spring/TA gameplay is outdated(my personal opinion, no flamewar please). There would be just too many things to change and too little things to keep.

Could you PM me your rationale for this, and what you want to have changed? I'm interested, but a public communication might not be the best format. Personally, I think the system needs more resource flexibility and unit limits, but aside from that, I haven't seen anything elsewhere that plays better.

pin_ · Post by **pin_** » 26 Jul 2006, 23:36

neddiedrow wrote:
pin_ wrote:My personal belief is that the Spring/TA gameplay is outdated(my personal opinion, no flamewar please). There would be just too many things to change and too little things to keep.
Could you PM me your rationale for this, and what you want to have changed? I'm interested, but a public communication might not be the best format. Personally, I think the system needs more resource flexibility and unit limits, but aside from that, I haven't seen anything elsewhere that plays better.

Do you think I'll give away my milion making ideas? :)

Leaving the jokes aside, I already mentioned the changes I'd like to make: add heroes and experince levels, limited number of units, formations (I know Spring has formations already), etc.

Theotherguy · Post by **Theotherguy** » 27 Jul 2006, 00:46

...heroes

well good luck implementing all of your ideas mate. If you can do it, and add the features into the engine I'm sure the community would be very grateful!

Neddie · Post by **Neddie** » 27 Jul 2006, 01:17

Sadly enough, those things are being implemented already, slowly but surely. If those are your only issues with the gameplay... then just wait a month.

I personally have found that heroes detract from strategic play in nearly all games.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 27 Jul 2006, 02:13

fun in a singleplayer campaign though. maybe someone will finally make one for spring.
and btw screw this 'outdated' crap, i know you don't mean to start a flamewar. but honestly guys, OTA or Generals? yes obviously most of us played both but you ALWAYS go back to OTA because of that awesome gameplay which modern RTS's (BFME, BFME II, ZH, AoW, WC3, WC3 FT etc etc) just plain FAIL at. Sure they are fun for a while but they simply don't have the stamina. To sum it up, they don't make them like they used too!

Aun · Post by **Aun** » 27 Jul 2006, 02:27

A hero will be quite possible once unit limits are implemented by using the experience of the unit to generate 'upgrades' as shown in the War Evolution mod by Optimus.

Then you can just fiddle with the cost to get experience gain right.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 27 Jul 2006, 04:09

it should be possible to choose what variable describes experience.
spring is so damn short of these patches even i might have to learn C+ or w/e in my spare time @.@
seriously, spring is not quite a closed book to modders but i'd say its a half closed book rather than a half open.

Charlemagne · Post by **Charlemagne** » 27 Jul 2006, 06:52

We already have a hero unit. His name is commander.

pin_ · Post by **pin_** » 27 Jul 2006, 06:55

Charlemagne wrote:We already have a hero unit. His name is commander.

He needs some upgrades
:)

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 27 Jul 2006, 06:58

That don't not count.

I can also think of any number of uses for a hero unit, without "Warcraftizing" the mod. I mean think of how many mods ideas open up with this ability. A Warcraft III mod springs to mind, but a much better mod would be a Darkside:Extermination mod. And imagine if that were no hero's to go with this mod? I mean it would be only half the fun.

So this should be a high priority in development.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 27 Jul 2006, 07:10

There's alot of things I can think of that I'd like be able to do with spring that aren't possible without fairly significant engine changes right now. Multiple resources, different styles of resource generation, modder defined upgrades, modder defined unit limits (read hero's), and more robust modder controlled movement AI's are some of the top items on the list...

Zoombie · Post by **Zoombie** » 27 Jul 2006, 07:11

I keep forgetting about all those...

smoth · Post by **smoth** » 27 Jul 2006, 11:29

SwiftSpear wrote: modder defined unit limits

I have that entirely planned out actually how it would be the most customizable, the easiest to manage etc. However, the request forum was spammed with stuff I don't want to be a pest.

SwiftSpear · Post by **SwiftSpear** » 27 Jul 2006, 18:33

Mantis it as a feature?

Spring RTS Engine

Modding - how far?