I just downloaded Expand and Exterminate. I have never before played it, and never really kept up wit the threads on it. I apologize if the things I am saying have been said before. That said, sometimes it is useful for development to get a completely fresh viewpoint from someone, so here it is, realizing that I am coming from a BA perspective.
1) Overall, my impressions were overwhelmingly positive. You guys have done a lot of great work, and I commend you on that.
2) I have difficulty telling the units apart. Unfortunately, unlike with any TA based mod, I don't think this is a problem that can be solved with more play. The difference between a plasma bot and a flamethrower bot (in terms of the model) is so small that until they fire, I have no idea what they are. I think this leads to frustration on the part of players who can't tell at a glance what their own units are. Also, if I catch a glimpse of an enemy, I should be rewarded with information more than the tech level of the unit.
3) I like the mechanic of forcing people to build nano-turrets in order to tech up. It's cool that I get access to new tech in a small area around the turret before I get it in mobile form from a constructor. Very cool!
4) This mod hates people who tech up. Although the above restriction is cool, EE does 2 key things to ensure that people will never use the whole tech tree on most maps.
a) No metal makers. I'm not entirely sure I'm convinced that porcing is something the game maker needs to prevent. In my experience, a player who is not aggressive usually loses, regardless of mod. It is about their state of mind. Also, games are supposed to be fun, and some people enjoy building as much as they do destroying. Why leave those people out of the EE experience?
Forcing players to fight over metal patches is kind of like map makers putting all the metal in the middle of the map. It is interesting until you notice that the first person to grab the metal, even for a short time, wins. Map makers have stop doing it (or at least people have stopped playing those maps). EE should get over it. Balancing metal extractors vs metal makers is difficult, but fortunately OTA already did all the work.
b) Higher tech units aren't that good. The moho metal extractor uses 100! times as much energy to produce twice the metal. Add that to the fact that a person has to make a HUGE metal investment to even begin to get there, and the fact that the level 1 units kick serious ass, and I can't see why level 2 will ever get built on a map smaller than 20 x 20, even on metal maps like core prime. Maybe that is the way you like it. But why make level 2 and 3 if you don't want people using them? With level 1 units, I have large range, stealth, radar, jamming, ballistic trajectories, and high damage (enough to take out level 3 units even). My units don't have many hp, but they are cheap, so I'll just make a bunch. And my opponent will be doing the same. How long does the average EE game last? 20 minutes? 30? Perhaps you dislike 2 hour slugfests, but I love them, and I think I am not totally alone in that respect. Bottom line, remove level 2 and focus on making a fast acting, micro heavy, real time spamfest, or give the upper tech levels a little of a break and let people upgrade.
Again, I apologize if this has all been said before, or if the gameplay is the way you REALLY want it to be. I think that with a couple tweaks, it could be vastly improved, but that is just my opinion, and feel free to disregard it.
5) The unit icons are all the same size on the mini map. It's nice to be able to differentiate units on the mini map based on gross type (air, emplacement, ground, resource, etc) and or tech level. On the other hand, I'm guessing this mod as it is never really has much more than level 1 units built, so maybe it doesn't matter much that they are all huge icons.
Thanks for giving EE to the community, and keep up the good work!
EE: First impressions
Moderator: Moderators
Good to see you tried the mod! I have some responses to your quibbles and such also:
The metalmakers are replaced by the expensive energy cost of the level 2 mexes, you must build up your energy supply to get their full benefit, much like metalmakers. The only real difference is that you can't farm advanced metal extractors in a large clump. I'm still trying to convince Fang to add a lvl3 mex though.
Level2 Is very worthwhile. The level2 units have longer range, more armor, and better damage for their cost than level1 units. I quite often hit level2 by the 5-7 minute mark. In addition, level2 URC gives access to some of the nastiest units in the game: cloaked rocket mechs.
It is important to remember that level2 and 3 units are not meant to work alone. The level1 unit corpses do not block shots, so you can easily mix them in with your larger units.
Glad you tried it, hope to see you ingame soon!
This is actually being dealt with, Fang has modified the URC units(which more people were having problems with) to be more distinct.2) I have difficulty telling the units apart. Unfortunately, unlike with any TA based mod, I don't think this is a problem that can be solved with more play. The difference between a plasma bot and a flamethrower bot (in terms of the model) is so small that until they fire, I have no idea what they are. I think this leads to frustration on the part of players who can't tell at a glance what their own units are. Also, if I catch a glimpse of an enemy, I should be rewarded with information more than the tech level of the unit.
I disagree with most of this. When I hit level 2, I can begin work on the only way to expand my economy after I have taken all of the metal spots I can.4) This mod hates people who tech up. Although the above restriction is cool, EE does 2 key things to ensure that people will never use the whole tech tree on most maps.
Most games last about half an hour, generally ending around the time someone can get level3 unit production rolling. Oh, and anything below a 12x12 map is probably a waste of time due to the range of units in comparison to BA. We veteran E&E players usually play on 16x16 maps.a) No metal makers. I'm not entirely sure I'm convinced that porcing is something the game maker needs to prevent. In my experience, a player who is not aggressive usually loses, regardless of mod. It is about their state of mind. Also, games are supposed to be fun, and some people enjoy building as much as they do destroying. Why leave those people out of the EE experience?
The metalmakers are replaced by the expensive energy cost of the level 2 mexes, you must build up your energy supply to get their full benefit, much like metalmakers. The only real difference is that you can't farm advanced metal extractors in a large clump. I'm still trying to convince Fang to add a lvl3 mex though.
Level2 Is very worthwhile. The level2 units have longer range, more armor, and better damage for their cost than level1 units. I quite often hit level2 by the 5-7 minute mark. In addition, level2 URC gives access to some of the nastiest units in the game: cloaked rocket mechs.
It is important to remember that level2 and 3 units are not meant to work alone. The level1 unit corpses do not block shots, so you can easily mix them in with your larger units.
Glad you tried it, hope to see you ingame soon!
Re: EE: First impressions
Alright, since Fang does all the work and the rest of us are merely a cult of players, with the possible exception of Forboding - what he says goes, just a foreword before I get into your individual points.10053r wrote:I just downloaded Expand and Exterminate. I have never before played it, and never really kept up wit the threads on it. I apologize if the things I am saying have been said before. That said, sometimes it is useful for development to get a completely fresh viewpoint from someone, so here it is, realizing that I am coming from a BA perspective.
See, Fang! People like it!10053r wrote:1) Overall, my impressions were overwhelmingly positive. You guys have done a lot of great work, and I commend you on that.
This is a somewhat common complaint. About twenty five percent of the player-base has issues with it, and it seems to be raised by people who never play E&E a lot. Fang is addressing it, but the need for a united art style will override any drive for change beyond a certain point. Still, you'll find if you play with camera settings or groups it becomes much easier. Anyway, next release may offer a solution.10053r wrote:2) I have difficulty telling the units apart. Unfortunately, unlike with any TA based mod, I don't think this is a problem that can be solved with more play. The difference between a plasma bot and a flamethrower bot (in terms of the model) is so small that until they fire, I have no idea what they are. I think this leads to frustration on the part of players who can't tell at a glance what their own units are. Also, if I catch a glimpse of an enemy, I should be rewarded with information more than the tech level of the unit.
Yar, I agree. Just keep in mind that they aren't really Nanoturrets, and you're better off with one to tech up, than five rather expensive ones with weak buildpower trying to assist one factory.10053r wrote:3) I like the mechanic of forcing people to build nano-turrets in order to tech up. It's cool that I get access to new tech in a small area around the turret before I get it in mobile form from a constructor. Very cool!
There are a few issues here. Let me get into the nitty gritty.10053r wrote:4) This mod hates people who tech up. Although the above restriction is cool, EE does 2 key things to ensure that people will never use the whole tech tree on most maps.
This is an interesting angle for this complaint. I once raised the issue with forcing expansion when I was new to the Spring community, and while I was eaten alive, I still understand my long-since abandoned argument - entirely different from yours.10053r wrote:a) No metal makers. I'm not entirely sure I'm convinced that porcing is something the game maker needs to prevent. In my experience, a player who is not aggressive usually loses, regardless of mod. It is about their state of mind. Also, games are supposed to be fun, and some people enjoy building as much as they do destroying. Why leave those people out of the EE experience?
Forcing players to fight over metal patches is kind of like map makers putting all the metal in the middle of the map. It is interesting until you notice that the first person to grab the metal, even for a short time, wins. Map makers have stop doing it (or at least people have stopped playing those maps). EE should get over it. Balancing metal extractors vs metal makers is difficult, but fortunately OTA already did all the work.
Porcing is porcing is porcing. Fang came out of working with Optimus on what must have been a soul-crushing porcing experience, see modern Final Frontier. If you can maintain energy of play while allowing porcing to some degree - see Gundam RTS - Fang may enjoy playing, but it just doesn't come like that often. Thus, Fang structured the economic needs to force expansion, with a touch or realism. Does it restrict play somewhat? Yes, that is undeniable... but among skilled players, it speeds up the game and makes the epic much more possible.
I may note that a reclaim economy is a tremendous element of the mod to compensate for the lack of metal makers.
The upper tech levels are murderous if supported by lower tech, and that is an element of the design philosophy behind the mod. You wouldn't send in your veteran soldiers without some meatshi- I mean, recruits, in actual warfare. Whenever I mess with Fang by running just Tier Two or Tier Three units out he can't help either laughing or yelling for obvious reasons.10053r wrote:b) Higher tech units aren't that good. The moho metal extractor uses 100! times as much energy to produce twice the metal. Add that to the fact that a person has to make a HUGE metal investment to even begin to get there, and the fact that the level 1 units kick serious ass, and I can't see why level 2 will ever get built on a map smaller than 20 x 20, even on metal maps like core prime. Maybe that is the way you like it. But why make level 2 and 3 if you don't want people using them? With level 1 units, I have large range, stealth, radar, jamming, ballistic trajectories, and high damage (enough to take out level 3 units even). My units don't have many hp, but they are cheap, so I'll just make a bunch. And my opponent will be doing the same. How long does the average EE game last? 20 minutes? 30? Perhaps you dislike 2 hour slugfests, but I love them, and I think I am not totally alone in that respect. Bottom line, remove level 2 and focus on making a fast acting, micro heavy, real time spamfest, or give the upper tech levels a little of a break and let people upgrade.
Yes, the power difference between the levels is much lower than in OTA based mods, but you will find that it is there. If I go Tier Two, I get longer-range artillery, more effective anti-air, better aircraft with higher range, more durable transports, other niche units... to some degree it is like a progression in upgraded units without upgrades.
Most games last between thirty and ninety minutes among the main player-base. 1v1 are short, as a rule, usually, though there seems to be more of a chance of coming back from a weak position than there is in BA or XTA. Team games stress working with your allies, combining the strengths of different sides... I believe one went far past two hours.
If you do get to Tier Three, it is generally micro-intensive, for the record. Just play around with them, you'll get what I mean.
Your opinion is your opinion, and I'm interested to see what is taken from it.10053r wrote:Again, I apologize if this has all been said before, or if the gameplay is the way you REALLY want it to be. I think that with a couple tweaks, it could be vastly improved, but that is just my opinion, and feel free to disregard it.
If I recall, Fang was playing with this. They are supposed to have size differences, and in testing, I believe the smaller units have been scaled down in icon size.10053r wrote:5) The unit icons are all the same size on the mini map. It's nice to be able to differentiate units on the mini map based on gross type (air, emplacement, ground, resource, etc) and or tech level. On the other hand, I'm guessing this mod as it is never really has much more than level 1 units built, so maybe it doesn't matter much that they are all huge icons.
Hurrah for Fang!10053r wrote:Thanks for giving EE to the community, and keep up the good work!
Dwang, everyone had to go and make my points for me. The only thing I have to say on the matter of Level 2 units not being good enough: In my game play expirences, Level 2 units are like those scary stompy things in the second movie of the Star Wars original trillogy. You know...the big old stompy shooty things with four legs.
So, if you remember, the BOSSTWFL's were destroyed because they didn't have enough SUPPORT. Becuase the Flying doodles wrapped their line things around their legs and they fell over. And that woulden't have happened if they had good SUPPORT units. They had some, but not enough, and as such the attack was more expensive then it should have been.
Wait...that was just a complicated way of saying: Use a mix of level 1 units to back up a few hard hitting Level 2 units.
So, if you remember, the BOSSTWFL's were destroyed because they didn't have enough SUPPORT. Becuase the Flying doodles wrapped their line things around their legs and they fell over. And that woulden't have happened if they had good SUPPORT units. They had some, but not enough, and as such the attack was more expensive then it should have been.
Wait...that was just a complicated way of saying: Use a mix of level 1 units to back up a few hard hitting Level 2 units.
Metal makers in EE... *shudder*
The lack thereof is what makes EE so great. As mentioned lvl2 extractors let you do the same thing as metal makers, spend energy to get metal, IE develop your economy... But it puts a limit on how much you can do this, stabilizing the economy and moving much more focus on fighting then outspamming. The strategical choice to spend money on getting more money is there... wich is good, but the endless spamming is not, also good. Have the cake and eat it.
The lack thereof is what makes EE so great. As mentioned lvl2 extractors let you do the same thing as metal makers, spend energy to get metal, IE develop your economy... But it puts a limit on how much you can do this, stabilizing the economy and moving much more focus on fighting then outspamming. The strategical choice to spend money on getting more money is there... wich is good, but the endless spamming is not, also good. Have the cake and eat it.
Alright since we're on topic and this mod hasnt turned into flame wars yet, I'll finally post my opinions on EE aswell.
Pretty much agree with 10053r so far as my first impressions went, although with a few additions. However I don't see having no metal makers as much of a problem, the economy structure is quite different in EE and it doesnt require MM's IMO.
Alright I don't dissagree with you much neddie but I do on this. From my experience in EE (which is far more limited than yours - to your credit), I found the case to be somewhat opposite from what you are suggesting.
In all the games I played/spectated the games were short, fast paced, and once one team/player had an advantage in expansion it more or less always was one sided from there on.
Reasons I find this to be the case:
In EE the metal output per mex is quite a lot higher than in BA whilst unit costs at T1 metal wise are still quite low. Because of this, the difference between having 3 extra mex in EE and 3 extra mex in BA is quite different, in that with EE having only a few mex more than your opponent gives you quite a hefty bonus in metal income to invest in units.
From what I've seen this tends to make the games more one sided as soon as one player/team has that extra bit of expansion, the payoff is large and they overwhelm the opponent quickly by using this hefty surplus of extra metal.
Your only way of progressing your economy is through expansion, quite in line with the name of the mod which is all fine and well. This obviously means you can't get away with porcing to remotely the same extent you can in BA, where if you are behind in expansion you can make up for it over time through an energy driven economy.
Furthermore, static defences in EE from my experience are pretty rubbish compared to units, so the opportunity to porc a solid defensive line which you dont have to constantly invest resources into replacing is less. This also adds to my opinion that it's much harder to come back from a less expanded position in EE than it is in BA. Energy structures also build surprisingly fast, and give a lot of energy, so the opportunity for metal maker's in EE really isn't there - clearly the mod hasn't been designed with this in mind, which is perfectly reasonable.
In short, economies scale up much quicker in EE and this adds to the fast paced nature of games I have experienced.
I also found the units to be really hard to distinguish, particularly for URC, just to make that clear. This is obviously being dealt with so theres no reason for me to say any more besides that.
Finally, and perhaps the most important issue I had with EE:
After only 2 games spectating I gave it a shot and found it to be very easy to get the hang of. The learning curve for this mod is as far as i can tell, very small, in that it's easy to become good in the space of only a couple of games. Economy management is far more forgiving provided you don't do something horribly wrong and unit micro for the most part doesnt appear to be as important as in BA. I think this is because a lot of units have very fast projectile rates (you can't dodge enemy rockets etc with units to the same extent) and furthermore that the ranges in EE are generally much higher and similar between units than in BA, so keeping units at range is not as important.
Certainly my experiences of playing and spectating EE have been fun, although it seems like a mod I would get bored of quickly, MAINLY because of the short learning curve.
Also, I havn't played/specced much so my opinions are based only on the small number of games I have played and spectated, which may not truly reflect the nature of EE games. Certainly the first game I watched was rather strange to me:
Comet 4v4, I'm spectating and watch daywalker vs fang on left side. Day makes mex, energy, mex, mex, hub, lab, 2 flamers, rushes the flamers south to Fangs base. The flamers go on to destroy pretty much the entirety of Fang's base and then shortly after a few plasma mechs cap off his comm and whatever else was left, taking a total of probably around 4 or 5 minutes.
I was surprised to say the least that a mod is balanced in a way that it is possible to kill your opponent with the first 2 units you build, which was interesting and exciting to watch, but certainly gave me the strong opinion which was later backed up by playing/watching other games that EE is much more fast paced and generally one sided than BA.
I never saw a game come to a stalemate between players, but I'm told that happens, so I'm just basing my opinions on what I've seen. Thats all. Please don't flame me:D
Pretty much agree with 10053r so far as my first impressions went, although with a few additions. However I don't see having no metal makers as much of a problem, the economy structure is quite different in EE and it doesnt require MM's IMO.
Most games last between thirty and ninety minutes among the main player-base. 1v1 are short, as a rule, usually, though there seems to be more of a chance of coming back from a weak position than there is in BA or XTA
Alright I don't dissagree with you much neddie but I do on this. From my experience in EE (which is far more limited than yours - to your credit), I found the case to be somewhat opposite from what you are suggesting.
In all the games I played/spectated the games were short, fast paced, and once one team/player had an advantage in expansion it more or less always was one sided from there on.
Reasons I find this to be the case:
In EE the metal output per mex is quite a lot higher than in BA whilst unit costs at T1 metal wise are still quite low. Because of this, the difference between having 3 extra mex in EE and 3 extra mex in BA is quite different, in that with EE having only a few mex more than your opponent gives you quite a hefty bonus in metal income to invest in units.
From what I've seen this tends to make the games more one sided as soon as one player/team has that extra bit of expansion, the payoff is large and they overwhelm the opponent quickly by using this hefty surplus of extra metal.
Your only way of progressing your economy is through expansion, quite in line with the name of the mod which is all fine and well. This obviously means you can't get away with porcing to remotely the same extent you can in BA, where if you are behind in expansion you can make up for it over time through an energy driven economy.
Furthermore, static defences in EE from my experience are pretty rubbish compared to units, so the opportunity to porc a solid defensive line which you dont have to constantly invest resources into replacing is less. This also adds to my opinion that it's much harder to come back from a less expanded position in EE than it is in BA. Energy structures also build surprisingly fast, and give a lot of energy, so the opportunity for metal maker's in EE really isn't there - clearly the mod hasn't been designed with this in mind, which is perfectly reasonable.
In short, economies scale up much quicker in EE and this adds to the fast paced nature of games I have experienced.
I also found the units to be really hard to distinguish, particularly for URC, just to make that clear. This is obviously being dealt with so theres no reason for me to say any more besides that.
Finally, and perhaps the most important issue I had with EE:
After only 2 games spectating I gave it a shot and found it to be very easy to get the hang of. The learning curve for this mod is as far as i can tell, very small, in that it's easy to become good in the space of only a couple of games. Economy management is far more forgiving provided you don't do something horribly wrong and unit micro for the most part doesnt appear to be as important as in BA. I think this is because a lot of units have very fast projectile rates (you can't dodge enemy rockets etc with units to the same extent) and furthermore that the ranges in EE are generally much higher and similar between units than in BA, so keeping units at range is not as important.
Certainly my experiences of playing and spectating EE have been fun, although it seems like a mod I would get bored of quickly, MAINLY because of the short learning curve.
Also, I havn't played/specced much so my opinions are based only on the small number of games I have played and spectated, which may not truly reflect the nature of EE games. Certainly the first game I watched was rather strange to me:
Comet 4v4, I'm spectating and watch daywalker vs fang on left side. Day makes mex, energy, mex, mex, hub, lab, 2 flamers, rushes the flamers south to Fangs base. The flamers go on to destroy pretty much the entirety of Fang's base and then shortly after a few plasma mechs cap off his comm and whatever else was left, taking a total of probably around 4 or 5 minutes.
I was surprised to say the least that a mod is balanced in a way that it is possible to kill your opponent with the first 2 units you build, which was interesting and exciting to watch, but certainly gave me the strong opinion which was later backed up by playing/watching other games that EE is much more fast paced and generally one sided than BA.
I never saw a game come to a stalemate between players, but I'm told that happens, so I'm just basing my opinions on what I've seen. Thats all. Please don't flame me:D
They are not nano-turret. You'd better of building more factories around a single hub than more hub around a single factories. Just look at the costs!3) I like the mechanic of forcing people to build nano-turrets in order to tech up. It's cool that I get access to new tech in a small area around the turret before I get it in mobile form from a constructor. Very cool!
For me, in all games I played, level N + 1 units owned level N units. The hub + factory investement cost a bit ok, but once you get them, price-wise they're better.4), 4)b)
Otherwise I agree with 1), 2), and 4)a).
Your points are valid DemO, to be honest, I've long considered proposing certain changes to unit weapon types and certain defensive establishments. However, I must note that most E&E is conducted between the same twelve or so skilled players who tend to be in a central range of ability, with a few upper and lower variance.
On to stalemates, however...
Stalemates tend to require both evenly matched teams and concerted team play. An odd number of teams could contribute to this effect as well. Let me explain a little.
You can select a team of Decimator, Forboding, Wasp and Fang and put them against Chapparal, myself, Lathan and Anbeetable/Andreask. In that group you have, roughly, eight of the ten best consistent players of E&E, staggered in ability between the two sides. This sort of game can grind to a stalemate easily through combined counterinitiatives and use of opposing tactics. Not to wax verbose, the game will continue because we decide play as a team, as one nation/family/pack, rather than separated players. Decimator can run a rolling frontline while Forboding flanks Lathan's forces with artillery and laser tanks, but Chapparal will be dropping his and my forces in Wasp's base. Fang can run air cover for his entire side, but a combined bomber rush by Anbeetable and Lathan will run a united response out.
Before you even start j5mello, you would be spectating this theoretical match and berating Fang and myself for foolish waste of resources. Fair enough?
Anyway, in Balanced Annihilation and XTA, I take great pleasure in two main forms of play: Attempting to throw stacked games, and working with people I like and respect in concert. The former is possible due to the ability of a single agent to turn a massive game due to the design philosophy of the mod. Even if I don't have the resources, I can exploit weaknesses in the AI or intrinsic and obvious imbalances in units to even the odds that the stacked host has imposed. Self-detonation of structures, anybody?
I am not saying that E&E is necessarily better balanced, but it follows a united design plan and philosophy - I can't simply micro my Sniper or EMP the dragons teeth to win. Things interact in unintuitive manners in OTA based mods because they are the constructs of many with no central guiding intellect. A unit from Uberhack, a unit from Core Contingency... how did we know they could do that? Storms and Riot Tanks... range and DPS married to murder?
I'm rambling. Well, off to my lass' house. Have a good weekend, all.
On to stalemates, however...
Stalemates tend to require both evenly matched teams and concerted team play. An odd number of teams could contribute to this effect as well. Let me explain a little.
You can select a team of Decimator, Forboding, Wasp and Fang and put them against Chapparal, myself, Lathan and Anbeetable/Andreask. In that group you have, roughly, eight of the ten best consistent players of E&E, staggered in ability between the two sides. This sort of game can grind to a stalemate easily through combined counterinitiatives and use of opposing tactics. Not to wax verbose, the game will continue because we decide play as a team, as one nation/family/pack, rather than separated players. Decimator can run a rolling frontline while Forboding flanks Lathan's forces with artillery and laser tanks, but Chapparal will be dropping his and my forces in Wasp's base. Fang can run air cover for his entire side, but a combined bomber rush by Anbeetable and Lathan will run a united response out.
Before you even start j5mello, you would be spectating this theoretical match and berating Fang and myself for foolish waste of resources. Fair enough?
Anyway, in Balanced Annihilation and XTA, I take great pleasure in two main forms of play: Attempting to throw stacked games, and working with people I like and respect in concert. The former is possible due to the ability of a single agent to turn a massive game due to the design philosophy of the mod. Even if I don't have the resources, I can exploit weaknesses in the AI or intrinsic and obvious imbalances in units to even the odds that the stacked host has imposed. Self-detonation of structures, anybody?
I am not saying that E&E is necessarily better balanced, but it follows a united design plan and philosophy - I can't simply micro my Sniper or EMP the dragons teeth to win. Things interact in unintuitive manners in OTA based mods because they are the constructs of many with no central guiding intellect. A unit from Uberhack, a unit from Core Contingency... how did we know they could do that? Storms and Riot Tanks... range and DPS married to murder?
I'm rambling. Well, off to my lass' house. Have a good weekend, all.
Micro of Indvidual units is not important, micro of groups of units is..
Combined arms, and the other levels are useful..
Aircraft can turn the tide in a mex overlap..
Those 2 games you watched demO were not an accurate representation of EE games.. I would encourage you spec a game not on altored divide (bad map) or comet catcher (also a bad map)
Ok, Why no metal makers, Well unfortunately the strategy in spring games is extremely limited. In fact there is only one strategy in spring games, and that is Kill All Enemy Forces, this is the only way to win (barring a com ends game). What this means is that your goal is to destroy your enemy utterly. As you all know the goal of Real war is not ever like that. Usually the goal of a real war is to take control of a certain territory, take control of more resources, or a combination of those. In more modern times we have had wars fought to preven the spread of a political or religious ideal, or over such a thing. However in none of these wars does one side ever set down the goal of absolute annihilation of the other side. This is of course one of the hallmarks of TA, it was about absolute annihilation of your enemy by any means. Spring emulating TA acquires much similiar gameplay by similiar virtue.
Expand and Exterminate (despite its name sake) is not based on the concept of absolutely annihilating your enemy. The key of the game was more for strategic terrain control. Now I cannot set up some sort of take and hold object as cool as this would be, IF I could this is Always how EE would be played. To force you to expand and to move out of your base, something I have noticed alot of spring players dont readily want to do, I set the mod up to force the map to have strategic points whether you want them to or not. To do this, I did the one thing I could think of, I removed all ability to generate resources outside of extractors. This forces you to expand, you have no choice. Now, as a downside yes I admit there is a slight amount of disadvantage confered on someone who does not expand as well, and they might have trouble making it up. This is somewhat unavoidable. However some of the problems suffered by EE are based on the maps it is played on, maps set up for TA with TA metal patch set ups tend to cause EE to play slipperly slope like.
So this leads me to maps, EE is meant to be playe don maps with a variety of terrain inside of the map, not a flat map, or a map that is divided into a 3 canyons with small entrances through the canyon walls. But a map with hills, valleys, rivers and small lakes. Somthing with some flat areas but also some natural chokepoints. The metal setup for EE usually works on each start spot should have roughly 3-4 mex spots for that player to start off of with another expansion spot nearby to expand to, the rest of the map is then dotted with single and clusters of mex spots in strategic locations. Essentially this then means that you have to be carful where you expand and use the terrain to avoid certain issues.
Essentially EE has no metal makers to force expansion, and I think you should also consider the map before you fault the mod, I do not care for comet catcher, it is a flat boring map with no terrain on it to utilize (dont say the craters they are nothing). Comet catcher because of its flatness rewards good micro play and makes a rush tactic much more effective because the playe has to defend from Every angle at start because there are no natural obsticles. Altored divide is a stark contrast to comet catcher being 2 broken ridgelines facing eachother with small chokepoints between, this means that there is very little terrain to manuver through and thusly makes a double team much more useful as it will allow necessary force to push through. For some reason these 2 maps seem to be favorites, and Honestly they play awful for EE, I would recommend you try playing on any of forbs middle maps I would have to get a list to indicate. I have found on these it is Much less of a slipperly slope, and teching up is far more useful, another map that is good is conquer's isle..
Actually I just browsed through my map list and I see no such maps like the ones I would like, The best I can say is like River Dale..
Combined arms, and the other levels are useful..
Aircraft can turn the tide in a mex overlap..
Those 2 games you watched demO were not an accurate representation of EE games.. I would encourage you spec a game not on altored divide (bad map) or comet catcher (also a bad map)
Ok, Why no metal makers, Well unfortunately the strategy in spring games is extremely limited. In fact there is only one strategy in spring games, and that is Kill All Enemy Forces, this is the only way to win (barring a com ends game). What this means is that your goal is to destroy your enemy utterly. As you all know the goal of Real war is not ever like that. Usually the goal of a real war is to take control of a certain territory, take control of more resources, or a combination of those. In more modern times we have had wars fought to preven the spread of a political or religious ideal, or over such a thing. However in none of these wars does one side ever set down the goal of absolute annihilation of the other side. This is of course one of the hallmarks of TA, it was about absolute annihilation of your enemy by any means. Spring emulating TA acquires much similiar gameplay by similiar virtue.
Expand and Exterminate (despite its name sake) is not based on the concept of absolutely annihilating your enemy. The key of the game was more for strategic terrain control. Now I cannot set up some sort of take and hold object as cool as this would be, IF I could this is Always how EE would be played. To force you to expand and to move out of your base, something I have noticed alot of spring players dont readily want to do, I set the mod up to force the map to have strategic points whether you want them to or not. To do this, I did the one thing I could think of, I removed all ability to generate resources outside of extractors. This forces you to expand, you have no choice. Now, as a downside yes I admit there is a slight amount of disadvantage confered on someone who does not expand as well, and they might have trouble making it up. This is somewhat unavoidable. However some of the problems suffered by EE are based on the maps it is played on, maps set up for TA with TA metal patch set ups tend to cause EE to play slipperly slope like.
So this leads me to maps, EE is meant to be playe don maps with a variety of terrain inside of the map, not a flat map, or a map that is divided into a 3 canyons with small entrances through the canyon walls. But a map with hills, valleys, rivers and small lakes. Somthing with some flat areas but also some natural chokepoints. The metal setup for EE usually works on each start spot should have roughly 3-4 mex spots for that player to start off of with another expansion spot nearby to expand to, the rest of the map is then dotted with single and clusters of mex spots in strategic locations. Essentially this then means that you have to be carful where you expand and use the terrain to avoid certain issues.
Essentially EE has no metal makers to force expansion, and I think you should also consider the map before you fault the mod, I do not care for comet catcher, it is a flat boring map with no terrain on it to utilize (dont say the craters they are nothing). Comet catcher because of its flatness rewards good micro play and makes a rush tactic much more effective because the playe has to defend from Every angle at start because there are no natural obsticles. Altored divide is a stark contrast to comet catcher being 2 broken ridgelines facing eachother with small chokepoints between, this means that there is very little terrain to manuver through and thusly makes a double team much more useful as it will allow necessary force to push through. For some reason these 2 maps seem to be favorites, and Honestly they play awful for EE, I would recommend you try playing on any of forbs middle maps I would have to get a list to indicate. I have found on these it is Much less of a slipperly slope, and teching up is far more useful, another map that is good is conquer's isle..
Actually I just browsed through my map list and I see no such maps like the ones I would like, The best I can say is like River Dale..
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
Well, ok. I'm not about to flame you so put down the extinguisher...
Many of you honestly don't understand purpose and or basis for EE, and that's ok, can't really expect you to.
The Bulk of EE is designed tyo be played at lv1, which is why they are still good to use even late in the game. Lv2 and lv3 are support for lv1. Hence the saying that lv2 and lv3 can't really support themselves.
FYI, lv2 and lv3 are much more cost efficent than lv1 and lv2 (respectively. Meaning, lv2 more cost efficent than lv1, lv3 more than lv2 etc). Why? Because of firepower. Anyone who thinks that a Ural (lv3 main battle tank) is weak must be delusional, same for the lv3 urc shottie mech. They whip out so much pwn it's breathtaking. The thing is, they are designed as support units, not krogoths.
As I said, the bulk of EE is meant to be played with lv1. Lv2 & lv3 are just better and in many cases very unique variations upon earlier unit levels. Now keep in mind, at lv2 the sides take sharp turns in direction. GD's superior arty and brute force become much more appearant. URC's stealthy side kicks in etc.
The same goes for the economy. You can easily fight battles with a lv1 econ if you have enough territory, but generally getting lv2 up eventually is a good idea. One thing I doubt any of oyu realize. The unique mexes at lv1 give more metal output than the regular meses. You can also use the mex upgrader AI with a lv1 con bot. It will replace all your reg lv1 mexes with the unique variety.
Meh, I'm tired of these conversations. People are never willing to read past topics.
BTW FYI, the lv2 geo structures are metal makers. They produce like 600 some odd energy and 6.5 metal per structure.
EE is about Macro strategy, not micro. Microing a unit is generally not that necessary (unless maybe stealth units, those take a good bit of micro to be effective). EE is all about the structure of your unit groups. If you queue up your factories for units and have less than 12 units queued in a repeat order, you're prolly doing something wrong. The reason is, ECM tanks/bots are extremely important, especially for GD, but having more than 3 or 4 per large massive group is generally kinda wasteful. So to that end, you would alternate builds, because no matter how few units you have, you need a good mix to be effective. I would go into detail here, but I highly doubt anyone would actually listen.
One thing, when comparing EE to BA (which is really really dumb, cponsidering the playstyle is completely different) is pretty much fail. BA was taken from AA, which was taken from UH, which was taken from TA. The units are a complete mess. I know this because I was screwing around with my own TA varient for about a week straight (and no, no one gets it, it's for me only). It's just a total mess. AA being built off of UH for spring is just bad. Delve into the core unit files, then dig into the arm unit files and it should become quickly appearent why it is such a mess. Arm is somewhat maintained, but core is just fugly. I've been trying to get Noize and Daywalker to go through and do a clean sweep as well as try out some other ideas (some good, some not so good ;P), but please, do not compare the two. If you have seen the internals of both, it is comparing Apples and Oranges.
Many of you honestly don't understand purpose and or basis for EE, and that's ok, can't really expect you to.
The Bulk of EE is designed tyo be played at lv1, which is why they are still good to use even late in the game. Lv2 and lv3 are support for lv1. Hence the saying that lv2 and lv3 can't really support themselves.
FYI, lv2 and lv3 are much more cost efficent than lv1 and lv2 (respectively. Meaning, lv2 more cost efficent than lv1, lv3 more than lv2 etc). Why? Because of firepower. Anyone who thinks that a Ural (lv3 main battle tank) is weak must be delusional, same for the lv3 urc shottie mech. They whip out so much pwn it's breathtaking. The thing is, they are designed as support units, not krogoths.
As I said, the bulk of EE is meant to be played with lv1. Lv2 & lv3 are just better and in many cases very unique variations upon earlier unit levels. Now keep in mind, at lv2 the sides take sharp turns in direction. GD's superior arty and brute force become much more appearant. URC's stealthy side kicks in etc.
The same goes for the economy. You can easily fight battles with a lv1 econ if you have enough territory, but generally getting lv2 up eventually is a good idea. One thing I doubt any of oyu realize. The unique mexes at lv1 give more metal output than the regular meses. You can also use the mex upgrader AI with a lv1 con bot. It will replace all your reg lv1 mexes with the unique variety.
Meh, I'm tired of these conversations. People are never willing to read past topics.
BTW FYI, the lv2 geo structures are metal makers. They produce like 600 some odd energy and 6.5 metal per structure.
EE is about Macro strategy, not micro. Microing a unit is generally not that necessary (unless maybe stealth units, those take a good bit of micro to be effective). EE is all about the structure of your unit groups. If you queue up your factories for units and have less than 12 units queued in a repeat order, you're prolly doing something wrong. The reason is, ECM tanks/bots are extremely important, especially for GD, but having more than 3 or 4 per large massive group is generally kinda wasteful. So to that end, you would alternate builds, because no matter how few units you have, you need a good mix to be effective. I would go into detail here, but I highly doubt anyone would actually listen.
One thing, when comparing EE to BA (which is really really dumb, cponsidering the playstyle is completely different) is pretty much fail. BA was taken from AA, which was taken from UH, which was taken from TA. The units are a complete mess. I know this because I was screwing around with my own TA varient for about a week straight (and no, no one gets it, it's for me only). It's just a total mess. AA being built off of UH for spring is just bad. Delve into the core unit files, then dig into the arm unit files and it should become quickly appearent why it is such a mess. Arm is somewhat maintained, but core is just fugly. I've been trying to get Noize and Daywalker to go through and do a clean sweep as well as try out some other ideas (some good, some not so good ;P), but please, do not compare the two. If you have seen the internals of both, it is comparing Apples and Oranges.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43
I'm with zoombie on the ctrl+z.
Ctrl+z is possibly the best thing ever implemented into an RTS.
And to answer jack... You wouldn't notice because you've been playing with it so long, and yes it does affect your gameplay, you're simply used to it.
Moving along, people are either gonna like EE or they're not, end of story. If they don't then there is always BA.
Ctrl+z is possibly the best thing ever implemented into an RTS.
And to answer jack... You wouldn't notice because you've been playing with it so long, and yes it does affect your gameplay, you're simply used to it.
Moving along, people are either gonna like EE or they're not, end of story. If they don't then there is always BA.
For me, it's EE and SupCom. But that's because I've been struct by the SupCom bug. Or is it hte SupCom boogy? Whatever it is...I just can't stop dancing!
And more importantly, Forb don't forget that it's not just CntrlZ but also double clicking does the same thing. Or at least I think it does the same thing. If it dosn't...it should.
And more importantly, Forb don't forget that it's not just CntrlZ but also double clicking does the same thing. Or at least I think it does the same thing. If it dosn't...it should.
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Forboding Angel
- Evolution RTS Developer
- Posts: 14673
- Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43