Build tree of TLL

[PauloMorfeo]

I am thinking of having one of these 2 possibilities of build tree in TLL:



1st option, very similar to oTA or AA (with slight diferences).
2nd option is more diferent than oTA or XTA. VLaunch units and moho mines only at lvl3, BBs and nukes only at lvl4.

What does people think?

[NOiZE]

option 1 IMO

[pintle]

option 1 imho but i dont know tll at all

[KDR_11k]

May be difficult to balance 5 tech levels especially when that faction fights against others that have only two tech levels (or do you intend to remove ARM and CORE?).

[FoeOfTheBee]

It's hard to predict what will work best - I recommend a lot of play testing with both, on large and small maps, and then picking the one that's most fun.

An XTA style build tree works well if the actual cost of the structures keeps them from being built too soon. This is nice because it is less arbitrary that OTA style trees.

[Neddie]

I would go option two for brilliance, but option one for ease of balance.

[rcdraco]

I believe that if you want to have a build tree you should try to keep it like it was similar to OTA (only if the other race(s) is/are the same way) you should keep it teh way it is meant to be played but make sure that you keep your tech trees balanced.

[AF]

Be unconventional and go against the norm to prevent unrealistic copycat behaviour.

Afterall we dont want a TLL == Arm remodelled || TLL == core remodelled, give it a fresh new gameplay.

[zwzsg]

No, if you're porting a TA mod, you must pay respect to the vision of the original mod creator. If M3G sees TLL as arm remodelled, so be it. If you want to be original make your mod.

And there's a large market for races that follow old TA gameplay but with fresh looking units.

[PauloMorfeo]

I really should have mentioned...

- There won't be (at least at first) no Arm or Core, since they are copyrighted. My aim is at following a similar path to Xect vs Mynn. (i may work on adding them latter as a separate ad-on mod)

- In option 2, we have «lvl-1» k-bots followed by «lvl-1» vecs, etc. They are suposed to be bigger and more powerfull with each level, not having the «lvl-1» vecs be a equivalent to «lvl-1» bots even though to have them we needed the bots first. This makes it so that i can't just make the balance and then easily shift to try both build trees.

[PauloMorfeo]

No, if you're porting a TA mod, you must pay respect to the vision of the original mod creator. If M3G sees TLL as arm remodelled, so be it. If you want to be original make your mod.
...

I will strongly disagree. I ask, he says i may not work on it or that i may but under which restrictions, i consider the restrictions and either accept or abondon the idea. If there was any restriction about how i handle the mod, it should have been explicitely stated when he told me it was ok to work it for Spring. I am very strict about it.

Would i be folowing that, i wouldn't be doing absolutely anything because his vision was using oTA copyrighted races, Arm and Core, using a balance greatly unsuitable for Spring, etc, etc, etc. Also, that didn't prevented him from changing the original Arm and Core to what Arm and Core are in the mod TLL. As it is, the present build tree is seriously flawed since hovers are an absolute dead-end. I can't accept that build tree.

I have much respect for the maker, i asked politely, went into great effort to manage to contact him, i am keeping the roles of the units, i just won't agree with that view.

...
And there's a large market for races that follow old TA gameplay but with fresh looking units.

If you mean that they will have a larger market beeing basically a gameplay similar to oTA but with the fresh units that are the race TLL, i will ask you where are the hundreds of people playing NOIZE's port of TLL.

[KDR_11k]

If the TLL faction is in isolation there's no real problem with 5 tech levels, though maybe it could be a bit hard to tech up. If the new factory is too cheap there's not much reason to use the weaker units and if it's too expensive people might not build it until pushed hard.

Also how are you going to give five different builders sufficiently different build menus?

[PauloMorfeo]

... If the new factory is too cheap there's not much reason to use the weaker units and if it's too expensive people might not build it until pushed hard.
...

That problem is independent of the number of lvls. We have that exact same problem in oTA, AA, and even XTA, although in a diferent way.

...
Also how are you going to give five different builders sufficiently different build menus?

Because TLL has lots of technology. Just for lvl-1 ground, it has 6 diferent turrets, and another 6 (+nukes and missiles) in lvl-2. Also, a lvl-2 builder could have also all the lvl-1 technology. A lvl-3 con have lvl-3+lvl-2, etc.

[VonGratz]

As it is, the present build tree is seriously flawed since hovers are an absolute dead-end. I can't accept that build tree.

Can you explain better your point of view?
IMHO, hovers are very specialized leaves of the "tree", and they still can be developed. For example:Level 2.5( ) Hover carriers (nearly all terrain mobile airpads) and heavy armed assault transports.

Because TLL has lots of technology. Just for lvl-1 ground, it has 6 diferent turrets, and another 6 (+nukes and missiles) in lvl-2. Also, a lvl-2 builder could have also all the lvl-1 technology. A lvl-3 con have lvl-3+lvl-2, etc.

I agree with this

VonGratz

[KDR_11k]

... If the new factory is too cheap there's not much reason to use the weaker units and if it's too expensive people might not build it until pushed hard.
...

That problem is independent of the number of lvls. We have that exact same problem in oTA, AA, and even XTA, although in a diferent way.

Yes but you'd have four points where the upgrade expenses have to be right instead of one. So either the time one remains at a tech level is pretty short (thus the units become obsolete easier) or it's long (which means the game may be over before the majority of the units can even be fielded).

Also what do you do about the strength of the tech levels? Five different strength levels?

[diggz2k]

Number 2 would work well (the five tech level would work really well if for example lvl 2 and lvl 3 combined are much better than just lvl 3 so that building the lvl 2 factory is worthwhile, Maybe lvl 3 would not have anti air but lvl 2 does. Or only kbots get anti air or some other weapon combinations. Maybe artillery and lasers split between tech lvls. That would be interesting if balanced right. Keep up the good work.

[PauloMorfeo]

...
Can you explain better your point of view?
IMHO, hovers are very specialized leaves of the "tree", and they still can be developed. For example:Level 2.5( ) ...

I mean that the hovers don't have lvl-2 technology (BBs, Mohos) in they're builders nor do they build any lvl-2 lab for we to advance.

[PauloMorfeo]

...
Also what do you do about the strength of the tech levels? Five different strength levels?

That was the idea, yes, for the 5 steps build tree.

...
Yes but you'd have four points where the upgrade expenses have to be right instead of one. ...

But consider, if i have 4 lvl changes instead of 1, each mistake in the upgrade costs will only affect the game play in 1/4. With just 1 lvl change, i only have one possibility of making a mistake but, if a mistake is there, it will affect 100% of the build tree, instead of just 25%.

One example, as it is now, oTA and AA are basically 2 lvls, with just one step (disregarding AA's lvl-3)(actually XTA is the same, only slightly diferent). With just that one step, we get mohos, Big Berthas, Annihilators and DDMs, lots of technology in units like Snipers, fusions, etc. I think it actually is harder to balance all those gains in one single step.

...
So either the time one remains at a tech level is pretty short (thus the units become obsolete easier) or it's long (which means the game may be over before the majority of the units can even be fielded).
...

Yes, that is a interesting question. About some levels hardly ever beeing reached, look at AA or XTA. In AA, hardly ever the games reach lvl-3 yet no one complains. Same hapens in XTA with it's small lvl-3. Actually, same also hapens in EE with it's 4(?) lvls.

[VonGratz]

I mean that the hovers don't have lvl-2 technology (BBs, Mohos) in they're builders nor do they build any lvl-2 lab for we to advance.

Now its perfectly understood and you are right :idea:
Anex to my suggestion list above an adv hoverplant and adv hovercons "to avoid the dead line", or...build an adv hover cons in adv shipyard.
VonGratz
PS off subject, but TLL
Remember you must to change the textures for a free from copyright race.The last versions of TLL utilized more OTA textures than before.Ive tested some TLL textures and other 3d party to substituteTAs .See it.

[PauloMorfeo]

...
Anex to my suggestion list above an adv hoverplant and adv hovercons "to avoid the dead line", or...build an adv hover cons in adv shipyard.
VonGratz

But that would mean that i needed to add a new factory and a bunch of new units into it. That is too much of a change... I can't model units nor could i find a hover factory and hovers that fit the style of TLL.

The smaller change i could (should?) do to it, is making the hover cons build lvl-2 factories (like in proposition 1). Building hovers, we might be losing one valuable step going to lvl-2, when we could go just straight to lvl-2 and reach it's benefits sooner, but we would gain flexibility by having access to more than one lvl-2 factory at our choice. And it makes sense since, after all, Hovers are a kind of Tank, a kind of Boat, a kind of Plane since it can go water and land, making sense that the hovers can expand into lvl-2 of any of those.