For those who are fans of the Robert Jordan series... I'm gathering ideas and information for an attempt at a WoT mod.
There's several obvious questions that must be answered. The biggest one is, which time period? We could do anything from the Aiel War all the way to Tarmon Gai'don, or we could do it with no special scenario or events going on.
The sides would depend on the time period. If we are at the present time (post-Knife of Dreams), which I'm leanining toward, I would probably have the following as sides:
-The forces of the Dragon Reborn (including what is called among the WoT community as the "Borderland Treaty Organization")
-The Seanchan
-The forces of the Dark One
Other distributions of sides would follow from using other time periods... i.e. Aiel vs. the alliance of nations in the Aiel War, the Dragon Reborn vs. the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don (which would require lots of assumptions), or each prominent nation in a scenario set before the Aiel War.
Then we have the question of what units should be included in each side - with the new possibility for limiting numbers of individual units, should heroes be included? And how do we model the differences between each nation's militaries? How do we keep the Dragon Reborn's forces from having too many different units? What sorts of siege units were present in "Randland"? Et cetera.
And a way to effectively make melee combat is a must. I know that conventional wisdom says that it's impossible or will at best be clunky and very ugly, but considering what miracles Argh has done with the Spring engine, I'm not sure that conventional wisdom is correct.
Wheel of Time mod
Moderator: Moderators
On siege units: I am sure there was a ballista in one of the books. Plus there were catapults in The Shadow Rising (defence of Eamonds Field). Plus the new "steam tractors" from the Knife of Dreams look like they will be used in battle at some point.
Balancing the sides will be quite difficult. For example, by the books only the Seanchan should have air units, both transport and combat ones (and probably the Dark One's forces which have the Dragkar, but it surely cannot transport anything, only fight).
If melee combat proves to be too hard, how about an Age of Legends time frame? The bits of info given on it indicate there were mostly ranged units (infantry used shock spears which were ranged weapons (lasers?) from their description) and in most part quite similar to traditional RTS infantry/tanks/aircraft.
Balancing the sides will be quite difficult. For example, by the books only the Seanchan should have air units, both transport and combat ones (and probably the Dark One's forces which have the Dragkar, but it surely cannot transport anything, only fight).
If melee combat proves to be too hard, how about an Age of Legends time frame? The bits of info given on it indicate there were mostly ranged units (infantry used shock spears which were ranged weapons (lasers?) from their description) and in most part quite similar to traditional RTS infantry/tanks/aircraft.
And what part about melee combat failing to work dont you understand..
Honestly a mod like this ought to be made for a Total War engine, being that they already have the forms in place to simulate the combat utilized in the wheel of time, even more fun you could wait till warhammer mark of chaos comes out, and then mod that since it would likely have even better framework, allowing you to incorporate flying units and magic much more easily..
Honestly a mod like this ought to be made for a Total War engine, being that they already have the forms in place to simulate the combat utilized in the wheel of time, even more fun you could wait till warhammer mark of chaos comes out, and then mod that since it would likely have even better framework, allowing you to incorporate flying units and magic much more easily..
its not a challenge, why wont people listen, this isnt some sort of conspiracy.. Smoth, wanted Melee combat in gundam, there is a reason that it is not in there, Melee combat does not work, mass melee combat does not work, the slighly hackish way to attempt to approximate it, is buggy, does not function well and in a setting requiring hundreds of units to use it on eachother will cause untold balance issues..
Aside from manipulating the particle FX generator to great effect, Argh has done nothing else that is not achievable by any other modder, there is a reason he has no melee combat either..
IT DOES NOT WORK..
secondly I doubt your ability as a modder felix, so I would be even less inclined to suspect this of going anywhere..
Aside from manipulating the particle FX generator to great effect, Argh has done nothing else that is not achievable by any other modder, there is a reason he has no melee combat either..
IT DOES NOT WORK..
secondly I doubt your ability as a modder felix, so I would be even less inclined to suspect this of going anywhere..
Im sorry, but his OP almost looks like a request for someone to make this..
I have not seen felix do anything that leads me to belive he has the ability to make a mod, specifically modeling/scripting. He has also selected a mod idea which is nearly impossible to implement in spring, another strike against my belief in his ability to mod, if he had a strong grasp of the engine limits he would understand why melee combat isnt feasible, isntead of saying, well argh can make the particle generator do cool stuff, so melee combat must be possible.
Im not trying to jump on argh here, Hes a great guy and a good modder, but aside from getting some really decent effects out of the particle generator, and adding some cool new features in patches, I have not seen him do anything that was previously thought to be unreasonable with this engine.
All this leads me to believe this is some sort of a OH I have a great awesome idea for a mod, but lack the ability/knowhow to get it done so I will post it here, get some new people excited since they dont realize that what Ive suggested is not possible. Then I will attempt to learn to mod, eventually realize its alot of work to do by myself, especially such an ambitious project as the one ive selected. Get bored and tired of the work, and drop the project..
Since that is the progression, how bout we skip the beginning and middle part, and go straight to the end.. eh..
I have not seen felix do anything that leads me to belive he has the ability to make a mod, specifically modeling/scripting. He has also selected a mod idea which is nearly impossible to implement in spring, another strike against my belief in his ability to mod, if he had a strong grasp of the engine limits he would understand why melee combat isnt feasible, isntead of saying, well argh can make the particle generator do cool stuff, so melee combat must be possible.
Im not trying to jump on argh here, Hes a great guy and a good modder, but aside from getting some really decent effects out of the particle generator, and adding some cool new features in patches, I have not seen him do anything that was previously thought to be unreasonable with this engine.
All this leads me to believe this is some sort of a OH I have a great awesome idea for a mod, but lack the ability/knowhow to get it done so I will post it here, get some new people excited since they dont realize that what Ive suggested is not possible. Then I will attempt to learn to mod, eventually realize its alot of work to do by myself, especially such an ambitious project as the one ive selected. Get bored and tired of the work, and drop the project..
Since that is the progression, how bout we skip the beginning and middle part, and go straight to the end.. eh..
-
Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
-
1v0ry_k1ng
- Posts: 4656
- Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
I think fangs right in some areas there but WHAT THE HELL? you dont just go to budding mods and modders "LOL U GON SUXX" and tell them they cant do it and they shouldnt bother.
if you think somthing sounds bad, dont just point out the faults. point out an alternate method or suggested changes. and try and be supportive not derisive
if you think somthing sounds bad, dont just point out the faults. point out an alternate method or suggested changes. and try and be supportive not derisive
Good effort man... now get back in your corner and stay quiet.Cabbage wrote:Must.. resist... the urge... to po..st.. offensive comment.. about f..ang and.. his tw..atish..nes...
That was hard...
The fact is, true melee doesn't work atm no matter what.
There are probably ways of emulating it. I've got some ideas in my head but not time to atm (involving moving around objects and detonating the target using LOS weapons for targeting (the latter is zwzsg's idea actually)).
Still it's very hackish and probably not very useful, though it might get around pushing. On the other hand you'll have to do some more than a sword swipe in terms of animation (i.e. make the model move towards the enemy, strike and move back into the center of it's footprint) or this doesn't work since you'll be attacking from the outside of the hitsphere.
Long story short, a mod based around melee combat on the spring engine is not recommended. Is there no ranged combat in WoT? Yeah I know nothing about WoT actually...
-
Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30
Felix, I like the idea, but melee just doesn't seem to be an option. I know of four (five?) separate methods that have been employed to attempt it, from invisible beam lasers, to high AoE low-range weapons... to pushing damage, and I am at a loss for how to work it in correctly without making major changes to the engine and all the content.
Anyway, Fang was just letting out a little steam, so don't be too harsh on him. A lot of what he said is valid.
Anyway, Fang was just letting out a little steam, so don't be too harsh on him. A lot of what he said is valid.
How am I being twatish, telling some guy who has demonstrated NO ability to mod, that making a mod that would entail making lots of organic human models + Horses, and then scripting in hackish melee combat which wont work very well at all in spring, that this idea is poor and that he should skip out and come back with something doable.. This mod project is not going to go anywhere, so why even discuss it.
I personally dont see why we need to be all nice and dissembling, felix has been a bit of a twat imo in other threads, so he can have some of his own medicine when he goes and jumps head first into somewhere he has no expertise and makes retarded statements..
To paraphrase what Felix has said:
and cabbage STFU.. mmk.. do you know anything about modding, hmm, what is your experience.. Ill be inclined to listen to some of you dunces when you come back with something to show for it.. I have not seen felix put something out at all.. Id be more inclined to believe this was serious, if he had some models, codes.. or examples of previous anything to back up his nonesensical statements..
As for avoiding melee combat in Wheel of Time setting.. fat chance, they have bows, but they still use melee weapons, were talking tech level equivilant to basically pre gunpowder weaponry in europe, and only the Seanchan, use the One power (magic) in combat quite alot, and until they show up, it is actually not used much.. Rands group of Male magic users starts using it in combat, but not to the same extent as the Seanchan, the Aes Sedai, forbid themselves from using it, so basically for ranged combat youve got bows and crossbows.. In some of the later works Jordan has been hinting toward the eventual use of primative cannons, and guns, and possibly rockets, but were talking the kind of stuff youd see in an empire army in Warhammer fantasy, not napoleanic stuff.. Essentially you cannot avoid melee combat, if you want to, then I have to ask why the wheel of time, why dont you just make up your own damn universe and story and use that..
I personally dont see why we need to be all nice and dissembling, felix has been a bit of a twat imo in other threads, so he can have some of his own medicine when he goes and jumps head first into somewhere he has no expertise and makes retarded statements..
To paraphrase what Felix has said:
Its retarded hogwash..I know nothing about the engine limitations, or how to mod, but because Argh (an extremly experinced modder) has been able to make cool stuff, clearly I can too, so I will do an extremely ambitious project that will require me to attempt to use aspects of the engine that basically are nearly non existant (see melee combat) and just because nearly every other experienced coder/modder has said that melee combat would work like crap and be hackish and poor doesnt mean I cant somehow do the impossible and make it awesome..
and cabbage STFU.. mmk.. do you know anything about modding, hmm, what is your experience.. Ill be inclined to listen to some of you dunces when you come back with something to show for it.. I have not seen felix put something out at all.. Id be more inclined to believe this was serious, if he had some models, codes.. or examples of previous anything to back up his nonesensical statements..
As for avoiding melee combat in Wheel of Time setting.. fat chance, they have bows, but they still use melee weapons, were talking tech level equivilant to basically pre gunpowder weaponry in europe, and only the Seanchan, use the One power (magic) in combat quite alot, and until they show up, it is actually not used much.. Rands group of Male magic users starts using it in combat, but not to the same extent as the Seanchan, the Aes Sedai, forbid themselves from using it, so basically for ranged combat youve got bows and crossbows.. In some of the later works Jordan has been hinting toward the eventual use of primative cannons, and guns, and possibly rockets, but were talking the kind of stuff youd see in an empire army in Warhammer fantasy, not napoleanic stuff.. Essentially you cannot avoid melee combat, if you want to, then I have to ask why the wheel of time, why dont you just make up your own damn universe and story and use that..
Wow, what questions, HE DIDNT ASK ANY QUESTIONS.. he MADE STATEMENTS, he said I WILL do this, I can do this.. IF felix had said, Hey im contemplating doing a mod on wheel of time, would this be feasible in spring and how would I go about doing it, I might be inclined to be nice. He didnt, he said he was going to do it, he needed some ideas, and hes sure he can make melee combat work..
Also theres the whole TA:K mod that showed up a while back, ever wonder what happened to that, right they realized melee combat sucks and STOPPED trying..
Asking whether melee combat works, is a STUPID question, as it has been asked before, and has been stated on numerous occasions to not work/be hackish and ugly/bad..
That entire statement is what has made me "troll" him.. its not wisdom, its cold hard fact.. Melee combat doesnt work, this has been discussed to death DOZENS of times, and felix should know this as he has been here for a while.. IF melee combat was possible and did not suck horribly, Gundam would use it extensively.. and someone else would make a mod using it.And a way to effectively make melee combat is a must. I know that conventional wisdom says that it's impossible or will at best be clunky and very ugly, but considering what miracles Argh has done with the Spring engine, I'm not sure that conventional wisdom is correct.
Also theres the whole TA:K mod that showed up a while back, ever wonder what happened to that, right they realized melee combat sucks and STOPPED trying..
Asking whether melee combat works, is a STUPID question, as it has been asked before, and has been stated on numerous occasions to not work/be hackish and ugly/bad..
-
Felix the Cat
- Posts: 2383
- Joined: 15 Jun 2005, 17:30