when to go to level 2?

when to go to level 2?

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duncs
Posts: 107
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:27

when to go to level 2?

Post by duncs »

when I have around +30 metal income I think: crap, time for l2!

and then if I'm playing against better opponents, they often get there before me. I'm starting to think that I don't go early enough? yesterday I was playing altored divide, and I had a bit of the middle part, and was getting around 30 metal. my opponent got to l2 before me, by about 20 minutes. why???!!! (my point about having the middle is that he must have had less metal income than me... unless he built makers? hmm.)

so, my question is:

when to go to l2? and do you guys often stall for metal while building your l2 plant? I try to never metal stall. obviously, sooner is better 'cos then you can put up the moho mines....

ok, thanks
heze
Posts: 38
Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 23:32

Post by heze »

One very important factor that you don't mention is who's doing the reclaiming. L2 plant isn't all that expensive if you get to reclaim 5000k metal in the first 20mins... It's very surprising how much metal you can aquire by reclaiming most of the stuff. Even if you control only 30% of the mexes but reclaim everything, you'll get moho mexes so much faster than the enemy that you'll soon have more production that him.

Of course area is very important too but if that costs all the wrecks to the enemy then it might not be worth it. This should be a rare situation tho, the one who controls the area usually controls the bigger army = gets to reclaimg.

Then again if you're a newish players you might just foolishly send units to attack the enemy and lose 'em...

Also trying not to metal stall is a big mistake. Of course too much stalling is a bad thing and optimally one shouldn't stall at all but that's humanly quite impossible. Just put the L2 plant under construction even with just one builder. It'll finish eventually - faster that waiting for your metal storage to hit 3000 metal.
duncs
Posts: 107
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:27

Post by duncs »

"One very important factor that you don't mention is who's doing the reclaiming. L2 plant isn't all that expensive if you get to reclaim 5000k metal in the first 20mins..."

ah ha! he was playing very aggressively with his comm, he was doing the reclaiming :)
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Min3mat
Posts: 3455
Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

Then again if you're a newish players you might just foolishly send units to attack the enemy and lose 'em...
:< agreed, attacking is overrated in XTA.
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wizard8873
Posts: 254
Joined: 21 Jan 2006, 02:42

Post by wizard8873 »

i would say when you're getting about 12-15 metal and have a stable front. at least thats how i do it. even if you metal stall, if you can hold off attacks on your lines and push them back, you get all that wreckage to reclaim which means more metal. just make sure you keep a conbot or your comm close by so you can reclaim. try a few things out. after a few games, you should learn when its too soon to go to lvl2 or when its too late.

you can also play a game and have someone spec and help you out. host a game and then see if anyone can just show you some tips. just let the person you're playing against know that the spec is helping you out.
duncs
Posts: 107
Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:27

wow...

Post by duncs »

"i would say when you're getting about 12-15 metal and have a stable front. at least thats how i do it."

I was leaving it way too late.

now I know why I lose more than I should. anyway, I'll be playing even better from now on :)
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Min3mat
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Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

if you are talking about AA you do NOT have to tech as a second plant. if you are struggling or you are aware of a weakness in your enemies defenses get some assist builders and another tech 1 plant (air works the bomb). but 12-15 metal??? that is not a lot, i guess you are talking about 'fun' 5v5 team games etc, in a 1v1 if you intend to tech you do it as soon as you can afford it or if you are almost at excess with ~15-20 metal income.
when making additional plants (especially in AA) be aware of the e drain you will encouter, in AA solars cost e so you must make sure you have additional solars before the plants or have some building whilst you construct the plant. tech2 plants in particular drain a lot of e, it would be wise to spam solar/wind or get a geo
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wizard8873
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Joined: 21 Jan 2006, 02:42

Post by wizard8873 »

no, usually it is around 12 whether its a 1v1 or more. it just depends on how the fighting is going. if theres a lot of fighting going on at the front, ill have my comm and about 2-3 con bots building LLT's, HLT's, and guardians as i have two con bots helping build rockos, hammers, and peewees. ill focus more on that as i expand out. only when i get about 15 metal do i go to lvl2 because i still have to keep building else where

i played killerd yesterday and went to lvl2 when i had an income of 14 metal. i know i go too late but ive learned the hard way when i try to get to lvl2 way too early and im attacked by twice as many units as i have constantly. it just works for me pretty well. i still usually end up going to lvl2 before anyone else.

edit
and yes this is in AA

edit again
i checked the replay and i went to lvl2 with a metal income of 13. i built lvl2 before killerd started building his lvl2 lab.

if you really want to get to lvl2 quick and you're low on metal. you can always start building and then reclaim your lvl1 plant. if you need units itll hurt you but it can help you get there with minimal stall if you plan it just right.
jellyman
Posts: 265
Joined: 13 Nov 2005, 07:36

Post by jellyman »

I tend to go tech 2 around high teens to low 20s in metal income. I do tend to tech slower than many other players, but I still seem to win my fair share of games.

I played a 1 vs 1 game once where I didn't tech until around 40 or more metal. I just kept expanding my level 1 economy to take 3/4 of the map. My opponent had the other 1/4 and had built a nuclear plant and all mohos and a squad of level 2 tanks. But he got creamed by a horde of flash tanks.

I'd say teching does depend on map. More resource rich, then you may get a higher income before teching, as your income goes up quickly. A more open harder to defend map, it is worthwhile staying level 1 longer as the units can be used for a decisive attack against players who have spent a large amount of resources getting a level 2 economy going.
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Min3mat
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Post by Min3mat »

no, usually it is around 12 whether its a 1v1 or more. it just depends on how the fighting is going. if theres a lot of fighting going on at the front, ill have my comm and about 2-3 con bots building LLT's, HLT's, and guardians as i have two con bots helping build rockos, hammers, and peewees. ill focus more on that as i expand out. only when i get about 15 metal do i go to lvl2 because i still have to keep building else where

i played killerd yesterday and went to lvl2 when i had an income of 14 metal. i know i go too late but ive learned the hard way when i try to get to lvl2 way too early and im attacked by twice as many units as i have constantly. it just works for me pretty well. i still usually end up going to lvl2 before anyone else.

edit
and yes this is in AA

edit again
i checked the replay and i went to lvl2 with a metal income of 13. i built lvl2 before killerd started building his lvl2 lab.

if you really want to get to lvl2 quick and you're low on metal. you can always start building and then reclaim your lvl1 plant. if you need units itll hurt you but it can help you get there with minimal stall if you plan it just right.
once 1.45 comes out. play me. (i'm on strike until flashes regain a vague resemblance of balance, and i'm a ARM player too lol). If you win i will use my powers to make AF's chatbot give you 2^53 cookies (if he puts me on the list ^.^)
please give us a replay before i go into 'NEWB! NEWB! NEWB!' mode and this degenerates
Egarwaen
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 21:19

Post by Egarwaen »

jellyman wrote:I tend to go tech 2 around high teens to low 20s in metal income. I do tend to tech slower than many other players, but I still seem to win my fair share of games.
Likewise. Earlier than that, I wind up at a severe disadvantage in the L1 unit war. Later than that, and I get smeared by L2 units.
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SwiftSpear
Classic Community Lead
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Post by SwiftSpear »

30 metal income is 15 or more metal extractors before you go L2... That's alot of ground to take and gaurd before you have any offencive push capabilities. You need L2 to kick off your metal income around 10 extractors or so with mohos or else your opponents will beat you in terms of economy.
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Min3mat
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Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

you start teching that early and your opponent finds out look out for a tech 1 rush as it will own you! especially make sure you have 8 odd pulverisers close to your tech 2 plant and your defenses are augmented by units and AA. teching early can be risky especially on small maps. even on large ones teching fast is not the only viable option and it is wise to go for MC if in doubt!
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AF
AI Developer
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Post by AF »

cookie mdoerators dont have the power to give cookies, only take them away, you'll ahve to give your own cookies out
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Zenka
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Joined: 05 Oct 2005, 15:29

Post by Zenka »

This is the most direct off topic post I ever saw. Thoug thx for info Alantai ^.^ (morr power!)
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wizard8873
Posts: 254
Joined: 21 Jan 2006, 02:42

Post by wizard8873 »

Min3mat wrote:
no, usually it is around 12 whether its a 1v1 or more. it just depends on how the fighting is going. if theres a lot of fighting going on at the front, ill have my comm and about 2-3 con bots building LLT's, HLT's, and guardians as i have two con bots helping build rockos, hammers, and peewees. ill focus more on that as i expand out. only when i get about 15 metal do i go to lvl2 because i still have to keep building else where

i played killerd yesterday and went to lvl2 when i had an income of 14 metal. i know i go too late but ive learned the hard way when i try to get to lvl2 way too early and im attacked by twice as many units as i have constantly. it just works for me pretty well. i still usually end up going to lvl2 before anyone else.

edit
and yes this is in AA

edit again
i checked the replay and i went to lvl2 with a metal income of 13. i built lvl2 before killerd started building his lvl2 lab.

if you really want to get to lvl2 quick and you're low on metal. you can always start building and then reclaim your lvl1 plant. if you need units itll hurt you but it can help you get there with minimal stall if you plan it just right.
once 1.45 comes out. play me. (i'm on strike until flashes regain a vague resemblance of balance, and i'm a ARM player too lol). If you win i will use my powers to make AF's chatbot give you 2^53 cookies (if he puts me on the list ^.^)
please give us a replay before i go into 'NEWB! NEWB! NEWB!' mode and this degenerates
ill be posting two replays once i get home. one of the battle i was talking about and another of a FFA with me, nicklg03, and killerd.

like i said, it depends how the game is going. if there are intense battles, i dont tech until i feel i can keep pumping out units. in the FFA, i think i had high 20 before i even teched and even then, it was just to counter bulldogs. killerd jumped out and me and nick just kept rotating positions. it ended up in a draw between us since we just couldnt kill each other. i sacrificed my comm at one point and regretted it just a bit later since i couldve puleld him back and d-gunned if i had the chance. it did help me out though.

even if i play you, ill still get my but kicked more than likely no matter how late or early i tech. im terrible at 1vs1 games most of the time.
BoredJoe
Posts: 139
Joined: 03 Mar 2006, 01:37

Post by BoredJoe »

depending on the map, at ealiest i'll go tech 2 around 18ish metal, any earlier and im going to stall a lot or have so little defence/offence about 5 peewees in the right place could probably breach which i have no resources to do anything about it
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wizard8873
Posts: 254
Joined: 21 Jan 2006, 02:42

Post by wizard8873 »

i forgot, i uploaded the one of me and killerd yesterday. here's the link to the file.
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2992
AA 1.44
Small Divide
1k M and E
and of course Spring 0.70b3
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Min3mat
Posts: 3455
Joined: 17 Nov 2004, 20:19

Post by Min3mat »

klkl ill take a look.
btw don't play FFA's they are bad for your health (if i am around >:D)
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wizard8873
Posts: 254
Joined: 21 Jan 2006, 02:42

Post by wizard8873 »

http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=3002

theres the second one between me, nicklg03 and killerd. its quite long if i remember. enjoy. Map is Karst
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