Spring Roadmap (near term) PDF
Spring Roadmap (near term) ODT
Hello, for those not familiar with roadmaps.
This document is more or less the consensus among the Spring people on how to move forward in the coming 3-5 months.
This document allows people that are less known with the project to contribute at various levels.
It's still a draft so feedback is needed.
Please comment.
Maybe it's good to clarify this more, it's a draft, I'm not aware of everything that is going on within our community and I need your help if you know something that needs to be corrected or included in the roadmap.
Your opinion and knowledge is valuable, so don't shoot me if something is incorrect.
Earlier versions of the roadmap had factual errors and there might be more that I'm still unaware of.
It had its initial feedback round in the mailinglist and the developers agree on this roadmap.
The roadmap is project wide so not specific to the engine.
I did not follow the "new website" discussion so I did not include anything from that in this document.
But if there is commitment and a common goal on a new site I will happily include it in the roadmap.
And keep it on topic.
The Spring Roadmap (near term)
Moderator: Moderators
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
The Spring Roadmap (near term)
Last edited by Tim Blokdijk on 14 Apr 2006, 12:25, edited 3 times in total.
This document is made with the goal to discribe the current situation Spring is in, in a development way of looking. (right?)
It does! Slight remark on the documentation part:
The documentation, there is a call for system requierments of seperate mods. The only visual distinction between mods are the models. and the number of poligons has an insignifigant effect on the CPU. So Spring could have a general system requierment. described on the wiki: http://taspring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Requirements. The requierment is indeed complex. Dependable on how much memory you have, and what type of graphical card. Also would the settings, max units and map size be dependable.
Shame on me, I have a comment on the layout.
Maybe it's becouse I've read the pdf file, and they are often made in Latex. (http://www.latex-project.org/)
A text usual has around 66 characters in a line. Humans get trouble reading lines longer then that. (take a book, count it.)
And you are the first person I crossed that uses ODT!
/me gives Tim a cookie.
It does! Slight remark on the documentation part:
The documentation, there is a call for system requierments of seperate mods. The only visual distinction between mods are the models. and the number of poligons has an insignifigant effect on the CPU. So Spring could have a general system requierment. described on the wiki: http://taspring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Requirements. The requierment is indeed complex. Dependable on how much memory you have, and what type of graphical card. Also would the settings, max units and map size be dependable.
Shame on me, I have a comment on the layout.
Maybe it's becouse I've read the pdf file, and they are often made in Latex. (http://www.latex-project.org/)
A text usual has around 66 characters in a line. Humans get trouble reading lines longer then that. (take a book, count it.)
And you are the first person I crossed that uses ODT!
/me gives Tim a cookie.
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
Yes, documenting the system requirements per mod might not be the best way to do it.
But I don't have a clear idea what would.
Anyway I have rewritten it, I leave it to the writers to figure something out.
I increased the font size so there are less characters on a line.
Don't know if that is what you meant?
And thanks for the cookie, first cookie I got.
But I don't have a clear idea what would.
Anyway I have rewritten it, I leave it to the writers to figure something out.
I increased the font size so there are less characters on a line.
Don't know if that is what you meant?
And thanks for the cookie, first cookie I got.
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FoeOfTheBee
- Posts: 557
- Joined: 12 May 2005, 18:26
D'oh, hould have checked the readme...The only non-GPL content I am aware of are the scriptor includes:
exptype.h
FlameUnit.h
HitWeap.h
RockUnit.h
sfxtype.h
smokeunit.h
statechg.h
stdtank.h
yard.h
this is the scriptor license:
So I think Xect Vs. Mynn is 100% legal.I assume no responsibility if your coputer explodes into flaming piles
of wreckage as a result of using my programs. That said, enjoy Scriptor
and DeScriptor. You can sell, distribute, pawn, mock, delete, claim
authorship, or do anything else with the programs that strikes your
fancy.
Last edited by FoeOfTheBee on 13 Apr 2006, 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
it might be a good diea to setup a package system where we have an archive with package.tdf inside containing a description, then it'll get opened in a utility and it'll put everything in the archive wheerever it needs to go given the path to the spring folder...
It'd be useful for itnegrating updates to mods and so on, and providing mods AI's and maps as I keep seeing people in the lobby asking where do yuo put the files etc.
It'd be useful for itnegrating updates to mods and so on, and providing mods AI's and maps as I keep seeing people in the lobby asking where do yuo put the files etc.
heh, for a seccond i thought it was Developers roadmap.
If you misread the title, you can get "Spring near term of the Roadmap" which would be terrible and is wrong :p
It more of "what should the comunity do" right?
edit:
The correct form seems to be:
The near term Roadmap for Spring (comunity?)
If you misread the title, you can get "Spring near term of the Roadmap" which would be terrible and is wrong :p
It more of "what should the comunity do" right?
edit:
The correct form seems to be:
The near term Roadmap for Spring (comunity?)
Last edited by mongus on 16 Apr 2006, 07:28, edited 2 times in total.
Indeed, it's like a... available job section 
I've took the liberty the alter the layout a bit. personally I like it this way.
It's silly I comment you on this part of the article, instead of the content.
Open Office document
PDF (created in LaTeX)
LaTeX source file
but PDF's can look so cool ^.^
I've took the liberty the alter the layout a bit. personally I like it this way.
It's silly I comment you on this part of the article, instead of the content.
Open Office document
PDF (created in LaTeX)
LaTeX source file
but PDF's can look so cool ^.^
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
The roadmap is about what would make sense to contribute.
Everybody can contribute whatever he likes but if it fits the roadmap it will be especialy useful.
It also allows people to get up to date with more aspects of the project.
Changed the title to "Spring Roadmap (near term)"
I will update the roadmap again tomorrow.
ToDo:
Update the Xect vs Mynn - Navy fixed.
Update the Xect vs Mynn - Some Non-GPL content left.
Apply Zenka's layout to the document.
A lot of things just won't be included in the near term roadmap (like localization and package management) because it won't fit the timeframe and/or goal.
The timeframe is about 4 months and the goal is "Have hundreds of Windows, Linux and possibly Mac users play Spring with each other without needing to legally own the original Total Annihilation."
Luckily cost is not a factor as that would be really frustrating. (poor GpG guys...)
Still if you like to do the work needed for localization, package management or something else you can just do so.
It just won't be an official goal for the moment.
The advantage you gain with a roadmap is that you can be more or less sure the work you do will be productive and others will support you.
The disadvantage is that other things won't get the same attention.
Anyway enough talk I need to go to bed I'm tired (0:30 local time).
Everybody can contribute whatever he likes but if it fits the roadmap it will be especialy useful.
It also allows people to get up to date with more aspects of the project.
Changed the title to "Spring Roadmap (near term)"
I will update the roadmap again tomorrow.
ToDo:
Update the Xect vs Mynn - Navy fixed.
Update the Xect vs Mynn - Some Non-GPL content left.
Apply Zenka's layout to the document.
A lot of things just won't be included in the near term roadmap (like localization and package management) because it won't fit the timeframe and/or goal.
The timeframe is about 4 months and the goal is "Have hundreds of Windows, Linux and possibly Mac users play Spring with each other without needing to legally own the original Total Annihilation."
Luckily cost is not a factor as that would be really frustrating. (poor GpG guys...)
Still if you like to do the work needed for localization, package management or something else you can just do so.
It just won't be an official goal for the moment.
The advantage you gain with a roadmap is that you can be more or less sure the work you do will be productive and others will support you.
The disadvantage is that other things won't get the same attention.
Anyway enough talk I need to go to bed I'm tired (0:30 local time).
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
Alright, I updated the roadmap.
Files: (same as in the first post)
Spring Roadmap (near term) PDF
Spring Roadmap (near term) ODT
I expanded the documentation part a bit with the need to maintain the wiki and writing background story's for mods.
Files: (same as in the first post)
Spring Roadmap (near term) PDF
Spring Roadmap (near term) ODT
I expanded the documentation part a bit with the need to maintain the wiki and writing background story's for mods.
Spring runs fine on Win2k3 (once it's set up for workstation use--which is pretty much required to use it anyway, except as a server of course). Win2k3 is basically XP sans the shit.
For what it's worth, I have a 1.3 ghz thunderbird, 512 MB PC2700 RAM, and a 128 MB Radeon 9600SE, and I average around 30-40 fps at normal zoom with these settings. I can run with shadows on at a playable level offline, but online I leave them off. I hope that helps with your goal of documenting requirements.
Also, I can tell you that it's still unlikely that we'll be able to convert more OTA players yet. At the very least, the game needs the new GUI, but there are several other aspects (best saved for another topic instead of derailing this one) which would need improved or changed in such a way to *allow* but not force OTA behavior.
For what it's worth, I have a 1.3 ghz thunderbird, 512 MB PC2700 RAM, and a 128 MB Radeon 9600SE, and I average around 30-40 fps at normal zoom with these settings. I can run with shadows on at a playable level offline, but online I leave them off. I hope that helps with your goal of documenting requirements.
Also, I can tell you that it's still unlikely that we'll be able to convert more OTA players yet. At the very least, the game needs the new GUI, but there are several other aspects (best saved for another topic instead of derailing this one) which would need improved or changed in such a way to *allow* but not force OTA behavior.
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Tim Blokdijk
- Posts: 1242
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 11:18
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PauloMorfeo
- Posts: 2004
- Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53
I'm sorry i haven't discussed this earlier when the discussion arose in the mailing lists...
Propositions:
(unless you don't plan on having that suport as part of the intended future for spring)
As far as i know, the most used Linuxes are, by a moderatly great margin,
- FC
- Suse (i think 9.3 has even more use than 10 or 10.1)
- Ubuntu
- Gentoo
- Debian
Five.
But Gentoo and Debian seem to live somewhat out of comunity and i think that, most probably, there will be people adding compilations of the game to repositories so everyone can use them. In fact, maybe Ubuntu would fall into the same category but i think that aiming at FC, Suse and Ubuntu is a nice goal.
I may be wrong. You are a Linux geek and you may know better than me if the normal way of getting programs in Gentoo and Debian is through comunity supositories or not.
(Mac OS? The great unknown i hope of cleaning when i manage to use a version for Intels
)
As for explaining why a distro isn't suported, de you really need to? Especially if the number is small, it is easy to just say that you are suporting the most used.
Maybe you could try and figure out, instead, a version of OpenGL that needs to be suported by the gfx card. Like those games that say they need a gfx that suports DX 8.1, Spring would have in the requirements that the gfx card needs to suport OpenGL 1.2. That information isn't as easy to find as DX suport but it is findable. Also, it is not as easy because it isn't as common to search for it because requirements are not put in that same fashion. That could be a helpfull turning point.
(or maybe it can't be put in that way?)
It could be nice if any documentation added to the wiki got marked with date and be assigned the version of Spring that existed at the time. Something like an automatical title added to the edited wiki (in nice big round letters).
Or not.
I know that one of the things that made me do my mod editor EdS was marketing. Even if people don't actually use it to make mods, it is very captivating and people have something with a nice GUI to look at and say «hey, cool, it even has an editor and everything. I bet even i can make a mod». Of course i have been working hard on having it be more than just a shiny tool.
What do you think about this?
What i do think is that people need to know that there are moderators, that there are moderation (there are people that are banned and won't play the game anymore), that if they harass someone they will be acted upon, that if someone is harassing them, they can ask a moderator for help.
Propositions:
... play Spring with each through a match making service other without needing ...The near term goal would be to have hundreds of Windows, Linux and possibly Mac users play Spring with each other without needing to legally own the original Total Annihilation.
(unless you don't plan on having that suport as part of the intended future for spring)
Although we can find talented Linux geeks in helping making packages for a distro (Chris Han comes to mind), i still think you should aim at suporting the less amount possible.Linux:
FC5, Debain Sid, Debain Etch, Debain Sarge ?, Ubuntu 6.06, Gentoo 2006.0, Suse 10
As far as i know, the most used Linuxes are, by a moderatly great margin,
- FC
- Suse (i think 9.3 has even more use than 10 or 10.1)
- Ubuntu
- Gentoo
- Debian
Five.
But Gentoo and Debian seem to live somewhat out of comunity and i think that, most probably, there will be people adding compilations of the game to repositories so everyone can use them. In fact, maybe Ubuntu would fall into the same category but i think that aiming at FC, Suse and Ubuntu is a nice goal.
I may be wrong. You are a Linux geek and you may know better than me if the normal way of getting programs in Gentoo and Debian is through comunity supositories or not.
(Mac OS? The great unknown i hope of cleaning when i manage to use a version for Intels
)As for explaining why a distro isn't suported, de you really need to? Especially if the number is small, it is easy to just say that you are suporting the most used.
Won't that be a huge pain?Furthermore it would be good to identify what video card chipsets / drivers work with Spring.
Maybe you could try and figure out, instead, a version of OpenGL that needs to be suported by the gfx card. Like those games that say they need a gfx that suports DX 8.1, Spring would have in the requirements that the gfx card needs to suport OpenGL 1.2. That information isn't as easy to find as DX suport but it is findable. Also, it is not as easy because it isn't as common to search for it because requirements are not put in that same fashion. That could be a helpfull turning point.
(or maybe it can't be put in that way?)
That could be a huge pain, also. Outdated stuff is bound to exist because of the changes that hapen. Maybe it would be better to have some kind of indication on what could be out of date or not.An constant documentation project is updating and expanding the wiki. Removing outdated information form the wiki is a thing that needs work.
It could be nice if any documentation added to the wiki got marked with date and be assigned the version of Spring that existed at the time. Something like an automatical title added to the edited wiki (in nice big round letters).
Or not.
Happypenguin brings quite some attention but it is still low profile. I have been wanting to put another news submission about spring in it, talking about the good set utilities to help modding. Map compiler, map editor in the works, mod editor (multiplatform :p), unit editor. I was going to add that with the information that all that was keeping Spring from hitting Linux distributions was the fact that still no GPL mod was available (those 2 sets of information would fit nicely together) but it seems that is not true anymore.- Marketing and Atmosphere (Players) -
More people need to be made aware of the project.
But don't slam the project on /. or digg as it will put a strain on our server and human resources.
But we can use more people to work on the stuff described in this document.
If you can find people that would possibly contribute to the project please ask them to do so.
I know that one of the things that made me do my mod editor EdS was marketing. Even if people don't actually use it to make mods, it is very captivating and people have something with a nice GUI to look at and say «hey, cool, it even has an editor and everything. I bet even i can make a mod». Of course i have been working hard on having it be more than just a shiny tool.
What do you think about this?
I don't think any of that specification is really needed. Politness is very common sense.Community guidelines
What i do think is that people need to know that there are moderators, that there are moderation (there are people that are banned and won't play the game anymore), that if they harass someone they will be acted upon, that if someone is harassing them, they can ask a moderator for help.
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PauloMorfeo
- Posts: 2004
- Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53
About trying to convert oTA players, it is known that they have problems with Spring not beeing exactly the same as oTA, not having the same gameplay.Gnome wrote:...
Also, I can tell you that it's still unlikely that we'll be able to convert more OTA players yet. At the very least, the game needs the new GUI, but there are several other aspects (best saved for another topic instead of derailing this one) which would need improved or changed in such a way to *allow* but not force OTA behavior.
That goes as deep as even the bugs beeing considered needed to be the same gameplay.
Spring could be changed to suport being more like oTa but to which a degree? If everything is made the same, even to the bugs level, we actually end up with oTA. What's the point of that?
What could be cool, however, would be suporting oTA though the lobby.
How hard would it be to adapt the lobby to do the same service for oTA?
That could bring the 2 comunities together without forcing each to the ways of the other and it would allow for a smooth transition of players from oTA to Spring that wanted to.
(i guess this is a thing dependant on Betalord)
I think it makes more sense to not try to have Spring be an exact copy of oTA (even with a better rendering engine).
It wouldnt be that hard to merge OTA and Spring into a single lobby server system, however the OTA players have their own lobbys whcih are much prettier than betalords lobby as it is atm, and most of the work here is in GUI changes to the lobby, afterall we need to get rid of all those spring options and only show them when spring is being used......
I don't think it's worth fracturing them again. Most of them prefer WarZone now anyway (since MSN zone died). If we want them to use the spring lobby the best bet is to offer a decent OTA mod.
A decent OTA mod can be accomplished with just a few things. I asked the people who still play OTA what they thought was wrong with Spring, and the general consensus is:
-GUI (which includes sluggish mouse, no minimap orders, the shitty GUI layout, and so on)
-Aircraft handling (can limitedly be solved with modding skills. Hawk dancing would be entirely possible if they seperated the TurnRadius tag into just movement commands and reinstated AttackRunLength for attack commands).
-Auto radar targetting (this needs to be optional regardless. Come on, we can disable ghost buildings, add another check box)
-"friendly fire" - units firing through friendly units as if they weren't there. I'd personally be coding this in if I could get the damn engine to compile these days.
-Most don't like the metal view, they prefer visible metal on the map itself. I know that's a mapper decision and not an engine side one, but it's still something to be considered. Also, personal opinion here, 99% of spring maps have too damn much metal.
Those are pretty much the largest complaints... and I think most would be willing to sacrifice hawk dancing just for more snappier, responsive movement in general. So really, the engine just needs to make something optional, give modders a little more freedom with aircraft, add an optional setting for modders, and finish the long-awaited GUI... other than the GUI, surely that list doesn't contain anything actually difficult to code.
A decent OTA mod can be accomplished with just a few things. I asked the people who still play OTA what they thought was wrong with Spring, and the general consensus is:
-GUI (which includes sluggish mouse, no minimap orders, the shitty GUI layout, and so on)
-Aircraft handling (can limitedly be solved with modding skills. Hawk dancing would be entirely possible if they seperated the TurnRadius tag into just movement commands and reinstated AttackRunLength for attack commands).
-Auto radar targetting (this needs to be optional regardless. Come on, we can disable ghost buildings, add another check box)
-"friendly fire" - units firing through friendly units as if they weren't there. I'd personally be coding this in if I could get the damn engine to compile these days.
-Most don't like the metal view, they prefer visible metal on the map itself. I know that's a mapper decision and not an engine side one, but it's still something to be considered. Also, personal opinion here, 99% of spring maps have too damn much metal.
Those are pretty much the largest complaints... and I think most would be willing to sacrifice hawk dancing just for more snappier, responsive movement in general. So really, the engine just needs to make something optional, give modders a little more freedom with aircraft, add an optional setting for modders, and finish the long-awaited GUI... other than the GUI, surely that list doesn't contain anything actually difficult to code.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
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- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29