How many people and how much money do you think it would take to get an indeffinitely self sufficient community? Would trade with the outside world, what products would you produce? How many hours of work would each member of the community be responsable for? Would the number required for a properly working comunity be under the "critical mass" of people that it takes for accountability to be lost? Would you be able to find entertainment internally or would you have to import it from the outside world? Could internally produced entertainment (for example toys, music, video games) be traded with the outside world for other entertainment items? What kinds of laws (in addition to the laws of the land) would you need to implement in the community?
Ideally, if it could be worked out for a group of people under 50 with a maximum of 20 hours in a work week, with a positive income being used to quickly pay off the dept accrued for set-up (say withing 5 years) would you acctually buy into it?
Self Sufficiency
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would you mind giving it to me? cause I'm pretty sure the only reason I don't like the amish is because they reject technology and allow religiouse devotion to ruin their lives... see... this would be like the amish where you take away the religiouse zealocy and replace it with a 24 hour lan party... otherwise I'd be happy to argue any valid points you would like to make or concede defeat if neccessary... I have met and been friends with a few people who grew up in amish communities and speak very positively about them... these people also cook very VERY well...
right... I was thinking one way to do it would be to send all the children out into the world (for higher education), and then if they get married out there they have the option to come back and join the community... that way the population of our group would slowly grow and eventually you would need to create a new splinter...
let's say 50 people is the right number, but can produce enough resources to support 100 people... when you reach 100, you use the income gained from over production and trade to make another farm/facility... and split into 2 groups of 50...
then, when the groups have split enough times we can start having exchanges...
otherwise we would likely need to keep strict lineage records so that people wouldn't mary their cousins... I think it would take at least 4 generations for 50 people, given proper record keeping, for incest to start being a factor... the problem is that in closed communities like this there is a good chance you'll fall in love with a cousin and end up pregnant... so that would be one of the rules I'm talking about making sure everyone agrees to...
let's say 50 people is the right number, but can produce enough resources to support 100 people... when you reach 100, you use the income gained from over production and trade to make another farm/facility... and split into 2 groups of 50...
then, when the groups have split enough times we can start having exchanges...
otherwise we would likely need to keep strict lineage records so that people wouldn't mary their cousins... I think it would take at least 4 generations for 50 people, given proper record keeping, for incest to start being a factor... the problem is that in closed communities like this there is a good chance you'll fall in love with a cousin and end up pregnant... so that would be one of the rules I'm talking about making sure everyone agrees to...
Last edited by SinbadEV on 20 Mar 2006, 03:45, edited 1 time in total.
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SwiftSpear
- Classic Community Lead
- Posts: 7287
- Joined: 12 Aug 2005, 09:29
Don't knock hermits, SwiftSpear 
I think it ought not to be looked or hypothesized about as an isolationist colony, you ought to think more about something more low-key like a neighborhood community, which would be semi-sufficient. Anyways, I think it would be cool as a weekend retreat kind of thing...
I think it ought not to be looked or hypothesized about as an isolationist colony, you ought to think more about something more low-key like a neighborhood community, which would be semi-sufficient. Anyways, I think it would be cool as a weekend retreat kind of thing...
that was one of the ideas we had back when we were talking about it in college... to make the "facility" acctually be a hotel or resort or lodge... basically, your "income" would come from guests, and you wouldn't be isolationist because you would be in constant contact with a varried group of people...
I never liked the idea of isolationist versions of the idea either. It would be good if we had regular integration with the community at large... perhaps start in a rural area near a city and basically set up a store in the city to sell wahtever we produce and have our residents do five eight hour shifts there a month at that store... something like that...
I never liked the idea of isolationist versions of the idea either. It would be good if we had regular integration with the community at large... perhaps start in a rural area near a city and basically set up a store in the city to sell wahtever we produce and have our residents do five eight hour shifts there a month at that store... something like that...
Could you define;
The level of self suffiency you are aiming for?
Some objectives of the community?
And the advantages of being part of the community?
I'm wondering if you are proposing a community where;
You have a healthier lifestyle, due growing your own food,
Lower evironmental footprint.
Actually work less hours than you do now.
Embrace modern technology to achieve this.
The level of self suffiency you are aiming for?
Some objectives of the community?
And the advantages of being part of the community?
I'm wondering if you are proposing a community where;
You have a healthier lifestyle, due growing your own food,
Lower evironmental footprint.
Actually work less hours than you do now.
Embrace modern technology to achieve this.
You've got the gist of the idea...Weaver wrote:You have a healthier lifestyle, due growing your own food,
Lower evironmental footprint.
Actually work less hours than you do now.
Embrace modern technology to achieve this.
Ideally I would want to be able to produce enough food/electricity to be able to live healthy year round without any trade with the outside world. However I don't imaging we will be able to manufacture light-bulbs, washing machines, farming equipment and most luxury items intenally... so there in order to live more comfortably then the average person (which would be part of the plan) we would need to be exchanging something with the outside world, and thereby relying on them for our comfort but not survival.
Supposing the idea of a mostly self-sufficient community is feasible (and it is), there is still a major problem that we would face if we tried to pull this together. Let's face it, this thread is an obliquely addressed hope at creating a Springtopia 
, so I'm going to regard it as such. Anyways, the biggest problem with creating Springtopia is that while you are emphasizing the goal of minimalized work time necessary, the truth is that the fate of Springtopia would hinge on the ability of Springtopians to be able to do work in real life.
Aside from professional skill sets like plumbing, electrical work, other things like that, self sufficiency requires a healthy dollop of straight-up physical labor. Being computer gamers, There is a natural disadvantage or tendency against Springers being capable of this.
Also, self sufficiency means cutting back on materials and products that cannot be locally produced, and generally a massive cut back in materialism in general. Conservation is paramount. Somehow I doubt that Springers are a particularly consevationist cross-section of society.
Another thing: being a community means living at least loosely as a united group or whole. Spring probably has its share of 'country bumpkins' city slickers and scenesters, libertarians (dem gubments stole ma' teefs!), pinkos, and maybe even a couple chavs, filthy worthless bastards...
What I guess I'm trying to say is that yeah, Springtopia is probably possible in a hypothetical sense, but this crowd probably doesn't have the consienciousness, solidarity, and willingness to do it (oh, and let's not forget that we're spread across the globe to boot).
anyway, just some thoughts... there's more to it than that, but I just can't get the words out right.
, so I'm going to regard it as such. Anyways, the biggest problem with creating Springtopia is that while you are emphasizing the goal of minimalized work time necessary, the truth is that the fate of Springtopia would hinge on the ability of Springtopians to be able to do work in real life.Aside from professional skill sets like plumbing, electrical work, other things like that, self sufficiency requires a healthy dollop of straight-up physical labor. Being computer gamers, There is a natural disadvantage or tendency against Springers being capable of this.
Also, self sufficiency means cutting back on materials and products that cannot be locally produced, and generally a massive cut back in materialism in general. Conservation is paramount. Somehow I doubt that Springers are a particularly consevationist cross-section of society.
Another thing: being a community means living at least loosely as a united group or whole. Spring probably has its share of 'country bumpkins' city slickers and scenesters, libertarians (dem gubments stole ma' teefs!), pinkos, and maybe even a couple chavs, filthy worthless bastards...
What I guess I'm trying to say is that yeah, Springtopia is probably possible in a hypothetical sense, but this crowd probably doesn't have the consienciousness, solidarity, and willingness to do it (oh, and let's not forget that we're spread across the globe to boot).
anyway, just some thoughts... there's more to it than that, but I just can't get the words out right.
Springtopia... yeah... I was thinking along the lines of getting more time for playing video games as the primary goal, with the possible additional advantage of a talent pool that could produce some really cool software... the "everyone here hates eachother" isn't valid... but the disparate and potencially incompatible nature of the community is a deffinite problem...
Once people start doing physical labour, like farming, you very quickly get used to it. If this was to happen, spending a few weeks helping out on a farm before hand would prepare us for the actuall work that would need to happen once this was set up.
Farms for this wouldnt have to be huge really. The commercial farms dont have to be tended 24/7, and can feed many, many people. If we had, say, 50 people, we could take it in shifts, with 5 people per day working the farm. If we get a bigger farm, we could even start exporting. Of course, a bigger farm need more people working on it, which means more people in the community, which means more food eaten, but somewhere in there would be a balance.
What we really need is a swarm of farmer bots, loaded with basic AI's. They can do all the farming for us, and we can just LAN all day. And make newer, better bots.
But that might be just going a bit far
Farms for this wouldnt have to be huge really. The commercial farms dont have to be tended 24/7, and can feed many, many people. If we had, say, 50 people, we could take it in shifts, with 5 people per day working the farm. If we get a bigger farm, we could even start exporting. Of course, a bigger farm need more people working on it, which means more people in the community, which means more food eaten, but somewhere in there would be a balance.
What we really need is a swarm of farmer bots, loaded with basic AI's. They can do all the farming for us, and we can just LAN all day. And make newer, better bots.
But that might be just going a bit far