Destruction of "high poly vs. low poly" argument

Destruction of "high poly vs. low poly" argument

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Caydr
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Destruction of "high poly vs. low poly" argument

Post by Caydr »

If this could be stickied for future reference, I would appreciate it.

Sigh... alright, let's run the figures one more time. One LAST time, because I refuse to utterly destroy your pathetic attempt at an argument again, it's just a waste of valuable time I might spend working on my mods.

With shadows off, an average computer such as my own gets a bare minimum of 150 frames a second, and as high as 300 if there's nothing at all going on and it's a simple map. All tweaks turned on, all bars full.

With shadows on, I get a framerate between 50 and 30, depending on what, if anything, I'm looking at. This is with all graphical tweaks turned on, all bars to full again.

With TWO HUNDRED of my fighters onscreen, that's 1000 triangles per fighter and 512x512 textures, I am reduced to 15-25 FPS, although generally in the higher range of that figure.

That is a total of at least 200,000 triangles in action. Now, for comic relief, check what XTA gets with 200 units onscreen. *GASP* it's the same thing! QUITE LITERALLY!

Image
Image

Now remember, these aren't even evolva high-detail models. These are stock XTA bulldogs which weigh in at a massive 56 polygons. I haven't modified the results in any way, in fact I puposefully put GEM at a disadvantage - XTA is rendering the same textures for every unit, GEM is rendering 4 seperate 512x512 textures for 4 different types of fighters. Oh, plus the GEM ones have things like real reflectivity.

So where's the bottleneck, my models or the engine? Put on your thinking caps here. The game performs identically with 11200 polygons worth of bulldogs onscreen as well as with 200,000+ triangles onscreen. Hmm, hmm...

Since clearly there is no difference whatsoever between XTA and GEM with shadows turned on, let's try it with shadows turned off.

Image
Image

Aha! Here XTA gets ahead. There is a difference of 5 entire frames per second between 11200 polygons and 200,000 triangles But, let's compare it to a similar screenshot, this one showing no units at all:

Image

So, between nothing onscreen and 100 XTA tanks onscreen, there is a difference of 62 frames per second. With 100 GEM fighters onscreen, there is a difference of 67 frames per second. So going from 0 polygons onscreen to 11200 is a difference of 62 FPS. Between 0 and 200,000+ there is a difference of 67. Again, the bottleneck appears to be the engine, since if only 11,000 polygons can reduce it 62 frames per second, there's obviously a problem there. 11,000 polygons is nothing in modern terms.

The bottleneck remains: the engine. And as that bottleneck is improved, the difference between XTA and GEM performance will likely widen a bit, yes, but GEM will remain more than playable and will likely gain nearly as many FPS as XTA would, especially as by the time the engine is improved to that extent, computer hardware will have similarly improved massively.
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Post by Forboding Angel »

lol pwned
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Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
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Post by Forboding Angel »

oh sorry for double post but wanna know something funny?

Maps rendered at full resolution tend to use less resources (on my machine) than maps rendered at 1 / 8

I dunno why honestly, but I've noticed a big difference.
IMSabbel
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Post by IMSabbel »

Well, but still your units are ugly and use 10 times as many polygons as they would need for the object detail.

Go the game art section at cgtalk and look at some of the tutorials there.
mongus
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Post by mongus »

*smashes abbel with a chair in the head*

troll
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TheRegisteredOne
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Post by TheRegisteredOne »

mongus wrote:*smashes abbel with a chair in the head*

troll
though it is a little rude, he/she offers constructive critism, rather than drooling over everything posted.
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Das Bruce
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Post by Das Bruce »

*slaps theregisteredone upside the head with a soggy linux manual*

Ugly isn't the point, polygons not meaning crap is the point.
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TheRegisteredOne
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Post by TheRegisteredOne »

exactly, extra polygons meaning crap here in terms of better looking units. and what is better? using lots of polygons ineffectively, or using fewer but end up with a better looking unit?
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smoth
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Post by smoth »

Das Bruce wrote:*slaps theregisteredone upside the head with a soggy linux manual*

Ugly isn't the point, polygons not meaning crap is the point.
Yeah, and you are the one who said this:
Das Bruce wrote:That map is like fat gay porn. It sucks as much as regular gay porn, its just much bigger.
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Caydr
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Post by Caydr »

Dear Mr. Asshat:

My textures are crap. I've admitted this from the beginning. I've also stated my intention to go back and re-do them all once I've gotten more experience in the field. Congratulations on repeating the obvious for the thirteen thousanth time. Your prize is a swift kick to the ass, presentable in person at my address.

You: your models will slow the game down.
Me: no they won't, I've tested this as have others.
You: your models will slow the game down.
Me: no, actually, I have verified that Spring is powerful enough to handle lots of polygons.
You: your models will slow the game down when shadows are turned on.
Me: no more than in any other situation.
You: your mod will use too much CPU power!
Me: actually GEM will use *less* cpu power since battles will focus on smaller numbers of units used more carefully and creatively. Two of the biggest CPU power drains are LoS calculations and pathfinding. Fewer units equal less LoS and pathfinding calculations.
You: your models will slow the game down and they're ugly
Me: I never claimed they were even good looking, in fact I've said that I'm still learning the process. Oh, by the way, I'm the only person who's managed to use s3o to any effect.
You: Oh. Um... you suck

Don't be so bitter just because I was right and you were all wrong. kthx
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TheRegisteredOne
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Post by TheRegisteredOne »

Me: Your modelling, texturing, and design could use improvement
You: My model do not slow the game down! you are wrong mr. asshat.

no offense intended :roll:
mongus
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Post by mongus »

uh.. should respond to that.

while the affirmation abbel did, may be true.

it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

the subject of the thread, has nothing to do with:

poorly textured high poly models
vs
Low-med poly models with great texturing.

thus, fix your crappy models/textures.

but with the fact that

Spring can handle large quantities of poligons in regular hardware.

Thus, lets make use of this in a wise way.

he may be offtopic though, with slight trollish deviation...

a troll looks for change the attention about something in order to "mislead" the crowd about the bussiness at hand, most of the times destroying the argument?

it has been Spring Smackdown about nothing in this forums latelly :roll:
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Das Bruce
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Post by Das Bruce »

smoth wrote:
Das Bruce wrote:*slaps theregisteredone upside the head with a soggy linux manual*

Ugly isn't the point, polygons not meaning crap is the point.
Yeah, and you are the one who said this:
Das Bruce wrote:That map is like fat gay porn. It sucks as much as regular gay porn, its just much bigger.
My opinions don't affect polygons not being a luxury item.
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jcnossen
Former Engine Dev
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Post by jcnossen »

But what the point to saying Caydr's models are inefficient? I think he got that about 3 threads back and admitted it too.
Just repeating his models suck will not improve them, in the worst case it will demotivate him.
IMSabbel
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005, 13:29

Post by IMSabbel »

That was the point :D

I just grew a bit tired of another 1000x pixel screenshot of his ugly models where he praised them. "LOOOK!!!! they dont make spring slower !!!11111!".
They just hurt the eyes, and i would be emberrased.
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Your models still suck caydr :P

jk

What's your PC setup?
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Caydr
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Post by Caydr »

IMSabbel, I'll say it again: I'm recreating a game from 1994. My textures already look far better than they did in the original game. I'm aiming for authenticity and functionality rather than wasting all my hours on making textures that make you lose bladder control. Which would you rather have, 4 months per ship or a playable mod featuring dozens of functioning ships and brand-new gameplay in 4 months?

Did you forget that I'm doing all this work on my own? I have no dedicated modeler, no dedicated texturer, no web manager, no PR guy... The only assistance I have is that Archangel has kindly offered his assistance with the scripting. Without him this mod never would've gotten off the ground. I might actually ask for help with the texturing except that, as I've stated, this is a 1994 game and I guessing none of you have both the game and a computer you can run it on. Heck, I doubt any of you have either of the above.. I'm also working on another mod you might have heard of. It's kind of obscure but you can see a reference to it on this pie chart:

Image

When I post pictures, I'm trying to show that there is in fact progress being made towards a truly different experience on this wonderful free engine the SYs, Zaphod, and the other devs have provided us with. They're not the final product and I've never advertized them as such.

Say what you like about my textures, but don't dare call my models ugly. My models are as high quality as you would ever find in any modern sci-fi RTS. You claim my models are wasteful, I call them detailed, you say they'll slow the game down, I prove you completely wrong, so now you just say they're ugly? Get a life.

My system specs are:
2.8 ghz p4 (3.0 underclocked)
Radeon 9800 pro 128mb (with XT firmware)
1 gig of ram
shoddy onboard sound chip
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Zoombie
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Post by Zoombie »

Am i the ONLY ONE aside from Cyder who thinks his modles look GOOD!

Not great, mind you, but good and cool.

Also i have a great respect for all modders, as makeing mods is HARD WORK! I tried and failed in about a day and a half of shoddy modles and crahses! Hell i dint even make a basic infantry modle that was the worth of a turd.

:(

I for one am looking forward to GEM, and hope it reall IS a gem...hehe...puns.
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Gabba
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Post by Gabba »

IMSabbel wrote:I just grew a bit tired of another 1000x pixel screenshot of his ugly models.
Hey, you don't have to look at his threads! I mean, you have a life outside the Spring forum, don't you? :roll: If you wanna prove his models are ugly, just make your own, better mod. Up to now, they are the best models made for Spring.

Go ahead Caydr, you're doing a great job, and I'm sure people will play your mod.
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Argh
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Post by Argh »

@Caydyr:

1. Good science. Thanks for doing this.

2. What does this framerate picture look like if the units are all off-screen? The same, different? That's a very important consideration- if we're going to build mods that assume that shadows are on, then the performance drain really comes down to whether this is mainly when we can see 200 units... or with 200 units, period.

Lastly, I have to echo the "leave Caydr alone" sentiment. He's doing fine for how long he's been at it, folks... and if you think you can do better, faster... step up, or get out've the way.
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