BAR questions

[Orfelius]

Split from viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33584#p570318. (Silentwings)

For BAR: i suggest a bit of promoting after we have:
° a working matchmaker
° an easy installer with games and most maps included (who try the game wants to start it immediately, or will be uninstalled)
° an easy lobby with 4 buttons: Singleplayer (training mission, BOT fight), multiplayer (matchmaking FFA mode), custom battles(actual rooms), settings.
the "custom battles"(or another name) button should bring players to the actual lobby and rooms, rooms locked to who has an unstable TS.

Yeah very nice and all! Keep living the dream but it is not happening due to not having not nearly enough dev power for any of these. Also imo most of Spring community is all about conservatism:
new maps? we got DSD/RedComet (for XTA) why would we need new maps?
better lobby? why... the Spring Lobby is functional right? I have been using it for 4 years already.

And so on and so on. Not that I am saying that is a bad thing... no I do in fact say that it is a bad thing. It is halting the progress. Though I am not talking about certain devs or whatnot just what I have noticed in the very core of Spring community which is centered almost purely upon BA right now (as this very thread suggests).

[Silentwings]

Keep living the dream but it is not happening due to not having not nearly enough dev power for any of these

I think someone like yourself who has contributed absolutely nothing towards BAR is no position to make idle comments like that. Some years ago, when BAR was conceived, people like yourself thoughtlessly said it must be impossible, unthinkable to have enough devs to remake all ~400 units+scripts (at that stage, this was the only goal). You have just joined the next generation of such people - your comment achieves nothing and potentially demotivates those who might actually do something useful.

Things happen VERY slowly because people are busy and have dayjobs. People who are actually productive are usually the busiest BECAUSE they spend time being productive on many things at once. Yes it might be 1,2,3+ years before BAR, or any other game (many of which have fewer developers than BAR) has the things Shockwave suggests, and yes some of them could never happen, but don't kid yourself and think you (a) have any idea how long they would take and (b) have any idea who might, now or in the future, become interested in doing them.

Lastly...

we got DSD/RedComet (for XTA) why would we need new maps? ... better lobby? why... the Spring Lobby is functional right? I have been using it for 4 years already. ...

... because people enjoy making maps? And some even couldn't care less whether or not the masses grace said maps with their presence. And lets just forget all (successful) work that was done to improve SpringLobby in recent years, or viewtopic.php?f=71&t=33072&p=566477&hil ... ng#p566477 or viewtopic.php?f=14&t=33065&p=566393 or viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33238, or the fact that Spring existed for some years before SpringLobby - and let me point out again, here, your lack of a sense of how slowly things move, but that they still move...

Spring community which is centered almost purely upon BA right now (as this very thread suggests).

So it's the most popular game on the Spring server (oh, really, well that's never happened before). Only a small proportion of the developers on these forums are 'centered' on BA.

Of course I don't mean to slate you personally Orphelius, you are by far not the only/worst person to make this mistake over the years, just the (randomly chosen) one that I responded too.

[smoth]

I think orfelius means the core players.

[Forboding Angel]

I feel like this post is appropriate here: http://zero-k.info/Forum/Post/131908#131908

[Silentwings]

Somehwat offtopic but gotta say I am wowed by apparent presence of BA discussion on the ZK forums. Also, addendum to previous post, a myth to debunk from that mine of "information":

http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/16379#130679

add to that, ~1750 commits to BA and merged into BAR... (and I'd like to get that ND clause removed from the models too.)

As said, I won't be playing much of a part in future development. But if you want to assassinate the work that was already done, you could at least do it without accidentally resorting to misinformation.

[Orfelius]

Sorry SilentWings but I was/am just upset that BAR has not been released yet properly. Back when the release was announced for Christmas 2013 I was very excited about it. Then it wasnt released due to reasons and with time I just grew more and more bitter about BAR being abandoned.
All that said: yes I concede to your point about development. I have absolutely no right to say that it is "impossible" since I don't know enough factors affecting the development process. The only point of reference I can have is that no Spring game/mod has properly implemented any of these features yet. But again bitter.

Misinformation has been introduced into the public because there was a total lack of information on the game development in the first place. Not everybody hangs out in moddev all day :\

And yes smoth that is exactly what I meant. Over that I fear that current BA community will have resent the migration into BAR as well and just stay with the old toys on the good ol' DSD

Oh and all of the lobby development threads are very recent and do not represent actual work I believe.

One question: Who exactly develops (right now)/will develop BAR then? Since as I understand that Behe has gone absolutely silent and you just stated that you "won't be playing much of a part in future development". Sorry I don't want to be pointing fingers I would just like to know :\

[Silentwings]

total lack of information on the game development in the first place. Not everybody hangs out in moddev all day :\

Idk what you think moddev has to do with it, but all changes to BA/BAR for as long as I've been involved are 100% public on http://imolarpg.dyndns.org/trac/balatest/timeline, which feeds into #badev, and have been so for some time (viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28016#p519664).

But again bitter.

It's pointless being bitter against volunteers.

upset that BAR has not been released yet properly. Back when the release was announced for Christmas 2013

I have no memory of a release ever being announced, and there is no prospect of a "proper" release in the near future. There might be a beta release in the next few months, see viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33563.

Over that I fear that current BA community will have resent the migration into BAR ... future work

Some probably would but I'm not sure why since no plan for migration has ever been announced. I don't know if that would happen, I certainly don't expect to be around to see it. As to future work/status/people, the latest I know is viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33486#p569639.

Oh and all of the lobby development threads are very recent and do not represent actual work I believe.

You could try reading them, then.

[Orfelius]

total lack of information on the game development in the first place. Not everybody hangs out in moddev all day :\

Idk what you think moddev has to do with it, but all changes to BA/BAR for as long as I've been involved are 100% public on http://imolarpg.dyndns.org/trac/balatest/timeline, which feeds into #badev, and have been so for some time (viewtopic.php?f=44&t=28016#p519664).

Sure but don't expect a not developer to keep a look on the track page. Puny people like me want to see results not a number of tickets that has been commited. Such results can be presented in a thread like this viewtopic.php?f=44&t=30537 ,making a dev diary or just simply pinning a thread with big "yes BAR is not dead".

It's pointless being bitter against volunteers.

I don't understand why exactly. I am would-be-a-player-of-BAR, that is a receiving point of a product that you amongst others make. Why can't I be upset that the project (supposedly) has been abandoned after a considerable amount of work has been put into it.

Oh and all of the lobby development threads are very recent and do not represent actual work I believe.

You could try reading them, then.

Umh I indeed read them, I don't think my sentence was clear enough. What I meant is: they are not (yet) in usable state.

upset that BAR has not been released yet properly. Back when the release was announced for Christmas 2013

I have no memory of a release ever being announced, and there is no prospect of a "proper" release in the near future. There might be a beta release in the next few months, see viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33563.

Yes I have seen the beta post and I can't say that I am not exited about it. Again misinformation from certain source and I didn't even bother to check for the proper source. Apologies for that.

Umh I should probably state that I don't want to by any means offend you or your work Silentwings :) I just pretty much vented my frustration on this certain matter in this thread and then tried to defend my reasoning which was based on unrelaiable sources and misinformation. Furthermore I think that all of my concerns have been exhausted and would like to request for this thread to be closed before we create some new major Spring drama

[Anarchid]

But if you want to assassinate the work that was already done, you could at least do it without accidentally resorting to misinformation.

I am not sure how this would assassinate anything. Will voicing this make BAR contributors sad and want to quit, instead of releasing?

As far as disputing accuracy of my "effort budget" statement, which i fully admit to be unresearched and for which (it being not based on a solid evidence base) i apologize, perhaps you should sample over hours and not over commit counts. Or at least over lines of code, except that is not applicable to models.

[Silentwings]

Sure but don't expect a not developer to keep a look on the track page.

I don't, I expect people who haven't looked there to not assume that it's blank.

Puny people like me want to see results not a number of tickets that has been commited.
"It's pointless being bitter against volunteers." ... I don't understand why exactly

I'm afraid that I don't regard this as my problem; my patience here extends to making release posts, human readable bug/commit messages, and no further. You might reasonably regard this as deficiency on my part, from my point of view its a hobby and I don't have to do a single second more if I don't want to. Consequently, I already know that I gave a lot of time, enjoyed doing what I did, and feel basically no obligation to do anything extra in response to your bitterness. You may have more success with other people, of course.

Will voicing this make BAR contributors sad and want to quit, instead of releasing?

Yes, I think that claiming a project spent "all its effort" and was then "left to rot for two years", when both are untrue, is likely to make people sad and possibly even less active. I don't find this a very difficult reaction to anticipate.

Locked on request of OP.