discussion of chili menu for games

[8611]

Split from viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33238 (Silentwings)

The discussion is on using SKOLM as a menu for multiple games, accessed via spring.exe

-> Games include lua code. When main menu is loaded it scans and includes this lua.
-> Said lua code contains that games chili based code for rendering a custom menu.
-> Automagically add tab which loads said menu.
-> Include selectable default menu.

That is too limiting.

covers everything discussed thus far.

...really?

So I guess any mod with a slightly non-conversative menu just has to include a "fake menu": One button with caption: "Ignore all the rest, just click THIS to start the real menu."
Sadly that will probally not prevent players from trying to set up matches in non-working or bad ways via the rest of your menu, over which the mod-maker has no controll.

[Silentwings]

That is too limiting.

Maybe you are not familiar with what chili can do here; the menu pane for a given game can be chosen entirely by that game, to fill with any chili controls and manage them itself. The only limitation is the size of the pane.

[Funkencool]

That is too limiting.

What Silentwings said. All I propose is a wrapper that's expandable from outside lua (like lua in game archives)

Also please stay out of my thread. I simply don't have enough time to deal with you nit picking.

I like the "settings in the top right corner" design you're pushing here I'm doing the same thing with chililobby if you've noticed here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33190#p567177

Keep up the good work!

I like the icons too, I just haven't mustered up the motivation to get any myself (on the todo list).
As far as including your's goes, it should be easy to just basically wrap it in my chili and leave it at that. But I won't likely be doing that for awhile anyway.

I also just realized that none of these menu's really require their own game archive. The engine could just include a game, while these reside in base content or the root LuaUI folder.

Our/Anyone's menu could just detect when said blank game is launched and enable themselves. Or perhaps they could even be tagged as 'Engine Menu' somehow and loaded accordingly by luaUI.

Also, Updated OP with my last post

[8611]

That is too limiting.

Maybe you are not familiar with what chili can do here; the menu pane for a given game can be chosen entirely by that game, to fill with any chili controls and manage them itself. The only limitation is the size of the pane.

Maybe I am familiar with what chili can do here and found it lacking.
http://youtu.be/lvd60-5vZLQ
A system as in this thread takes away too much freedom from mods and is limited to putting some buttons and scrollbars into a submenu.
What about mods having their own GUI, own menu graphics, background animation, menu music, intro movie, ...or most general: anything that is not covered by merely customizing.
None of the singleplayer menus released so far would be compatible with this.

[Funkencool]

A system as in this thread takes away too much freedom from mods and is limited to putting some buttons and scrollbars into a submenu.

It give's games all the freedom in the world, they could add whatever they want to the screen.

You obviously don't understand my proposal, don't confuse different aspects of what I'm working on to be all inclusive.

Most of all Single player menus that already exist don't require a menu, they already have one

[8611]

Well then give some details
From github and this thread I get impression that this is not the menu of a single game (like BA) but is supposed to be in some way the "Spring Singleplayer Menu" of multiple games. For example by eventually replacing the menu that comes up when spring.exe is launched. (the startscript is obviously just a way to test)
Games get a way to run their own (pre-edit: chili) code to customize a bit but it is within the menu.

If you click my video you will see that the map is a part of the menu.
Similiar was done in other menus of other mods too, even if there the map was just used as "splash screen." I do not see how this is possible here except by "exploits" like described in viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33238&p=567325#p567304
" add whatever they want to the screen" = not enought.

If the goal is something else then you need to describe that a lot better.

[Silentwings]

@8611: The first few lines of the original post (edit: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33238#p567248 from the original thread) make it clear that this is currently a project with a fuzzy goal and a fuzzy title to match. Moreover,

I'm not looking for any superficial criticism yet. Advice and help on the other hand, are welcome

Please honour this request.

[Funkencool]

Thank you bluestone

Yet still I can't help but reply

If you click my video you will see that the map is a part of the menu.
Similiar was done in other menus of other mods too, even if there the map was just used as "splash screen." I do not see how this is possible here except by "exploits" like described in viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33238&p=567325#p567304
" add whatever they want to the screen" = not enought.

Anything with that level of detail should be handled on it's own, not by a default menu of any kind. With something like abma's proposal spring could be configured to load that game and/or it's menu by default.

see here viewtopic.php?p=567327#p567327 for more details about my thoughts.

Also note, those buttons in my example could be programmed to reload spring straight into said games menu when clicked. Acting much like your earlier menu, but with more options.

[8611]

So my fears were correct.
You indeed try to push this as the spring menu and any mod that does not fit your standards is just out of luck.

Your 'solution' for non-compatible games is that players download some new installers where the dev did "rename spring.exe into nameofgame.exe" - just so that the correct menu would show!

Imo the biggest goal of all this was that such things would be no longer nessecary.
To me that is not "superficial criticism", it is the core question.

And as long as you try to push that (now even in a thread about maps viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33196 imo totally off topic there) and pretend everything is fine ("covers everything discussed thus far.") I sadly have to reply.
Asking "do not respond" is bit unfair when this is something that affects everybody.

those buttons in my example could be programmed to reload spring straight into said games menu when clicked.

That is the only way.
I do not care whose menu is used.
But ask the player in neutral way which game he wants to start.
Any "more options" belong into the game's menu itself.

If there really absolutely must be some general menu then it would be the fall-back optin and should be behind 9001 labels stating that it for some games it will not be the best experience or simply not work at all.

[Funkencool]

I don't get what's not neutral about that?

Removed my cranky post (no need for it)

[Funkencool]

Split out this discussion from it's original thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=33238. (Silentwings)

Thanks for splitting.

@8611 Now in this thread, I'm more than willing to discuss your disapproval of my menu system.

[gajop]

Since this is starting to look like the Spring engine-default lobby discussion again, here are my thoughts:
Assuming something based on SKOLM would be used, on spring.exe start have a window popup with a list of games that have working in-game lobbies. Ask the user to either choose one of those games, or continue using this lobby.
It's important to not lose the functionality of starting a custom game as we have with spring.exe now.

The thing is, SKOLM doesn't have to implement it, it's just as easy to fork and change anything one wants, or offer a better solution.

[gajop]

If there really absolutely must be some general menu then it would be the fall-back optin and should be behind 9001 labels stating that it for some games it will not be the best experience or simply not work at all.

It's also equally likely that many games might not have lobbies or that those might not really be great of offer the best experience. A balance between customization and good-default solution is needed.

I'm jumping the gun here, but since we're talking about include this as the engine default and I presume distributing it with Spring, it might be best to include it as a rapid dependency so we ensure that the newest version would always be used.

[Silentwings]

Well, I've said it for lobbies enough times before so I'll say it here too

I think its good to have (at least, as the default view) all games that run with the latest Spring shown, because it gives projects in early stages of their development the change to get some exposure.

[Funkencool]

I merely like the idea of a user being able to customize and switch between different menus. Whatever the default is, I want to be able to switch to my own. It would be cool if the default menu provided the means to change to a different default menu. ( or if the user could just drop a "menu" into "luaUI/widgets/" ). I've been stuck with the plain default for years, I don't want to get 'stuck' with a different one.


Regardless, things I think are necessary for all menus

• Most if not everyone agrees, Chili (it's in the title)
• Engine Settings
• Menu Settings
• Startscripts, so they know how to launch games by default. (things like maps, or AIs for units)
  • for now the menu could just include it's own, but ultimately the game should for maintenance reasons
• Extensibility, because not everyone will be happy with the default menu defaults.

[Funkencool]

Your 'solution' for non-compatible games is that players download some new installers where the dev did "rename spring.exe into nameofgame.exe" - just so that the correct menu would show!

Imo the biggest goal of all this was that such things would be no longer nessecary.

"rename spring.exe into nameofgame.exe" isn't even possible right now, much less necessary. As of right now it would just launch into springs default menu, no matter what. I actually really want this feature, and I believe others do too.

My question for you:
How do you suggest making the running of spring.exe show the 'correct menu' directly? Are you just implying that spring games should depend on the default menu as their 'correct menu'?

I thought we both agreed that games menus should be handled by themselves. I am not implying in anyway that the menu should "ignore" these games. It should not add or detract from these, but only "link" to them.

[Jools]

Regardless, things I think are necessary for all menus

• Most if not everyone agrees, Chili (it's in the title)
• Engine Settings
• Menu Settings
• Startscripts, so they know how to launch games by default. (things like maps, or AIs for units)
  • for now the menu could just include it's own, but ultimately the game should for maintenance reasons
• Extensibility, because not everyone will be happy with the default menu defaults.

The only problem is the requirement of chili, not all games use chili. If it's a problem that it's in the title => change title. Title was set by Silentwings, who is a chili advocate.

Obviously I don't care what private projects do, but is this one?

[Silentwings]

Title was set by Silentwings

As far as I can see, this thread is about using a chili menu for games.

[Jools]

Well, you can't make community wide decisions by setting a title of a thread and then say everything else is off-topic. That's not the purpose of having moderators.

Of course you are allowed to do it but it makes just as much sense as creating a thread called "Paris is the capital of Germany" and now please discuss and stay on-topic.

ʎuɐɯɹǝb ɟo ןɐʇıdɐɔ ǝɥʇ sı uıןɹǝq :ǝʇou

[Silentwings]

@Jools:

The split was done on request of the original threads author and its title appropriately reflects the content of the split posts.

I'd be grateful if you didn't insult me and throw baseless accusations at me, as well. If you are maybe assuming that I'd be in favour of forcing all Spring games to include chili code, you are simply wrong.

I don't see any sign of a decision (on anything!?) being taken by the engine devs in this thread. If you are worried about the idea of Spring one day using a chili menu, this thread seems an appropriate place for you to voice your fears to them.