List what you want to see that map making wiki turn into

[enetheru]

OK, so I'll preface this with the fact that I am not going to be changing the main page any time soon unless a general consensus is formed, and a mock up is approved by the community.

The reason I'm posting this is because of previous discussions, my own feelings, the fact that I will have some time soon to do some work on it.

So I'll start

what I would like to see is:
* completely cross platform
All documentation should either be platform agnostic, or contain instructions for each platform
* Feature Specific technical docs
* Style/domain specific howto's
how to make a minimal working map, how to make sunset, how to make space, how to make rivers, how to make large maps, how to make etc etc..
* catalogue of tools
with links to relevant documenation
* No assumption of games used
with optional additional information chunks for specific games if necessary
* Common Gotcha's
like pink map, solid archive, etc
* Heirarchal structure
not everything on the same page.
* Obvious beginners tutorial to get things started.
* dreams
a place for people to write up what they wish existed so someone can create it, maps, tools, docs blah blah
* site map detailed whats done and whats not done.
* pull in information from old pages and delete old pages.

ahh thats all for now. thoughts?

[knorke]

all of the above, reachable by links from some mapping start page.

[Silentwings]

I think it's good to include a few different beginners tutorials, since many ppl like to use different bits of software and put different amounts of time into mapmaking. Also some basic working templates (even if its just a heightmap, texturemap, metal map and mapconv command line), I have the feeling most beginners struggle to get to even that point.

Beyond stuff for beginner, well organised and accurate docu of the features spring can use (easier said than done xD) is all we need imo.

I don't think it's a good idea to have an explicit feature for people request 'dream' maps. I've never known anyone make a map for someone on that basis.

[SinbadEV]

I think it's good to include a few different beginners tutorials, since many ppl like to use different bits of software and put different amounts of time into mapmaking. Also some basic working templates (even if its just a heightmap, texturemap, metal map and mapconv command line), I have the feeling most beginners struggle to get to even that point.

I feel like a minimal example would be a good start... like all the parts you need to make a map already assembled for people to open up and look at with an accompanying tutorial of how it all fits together and the steps to get it in game... would be nice if it actually included the currently accepted mapconv and a premade batch files or whatever.

Also, on the subject of being cross platform or platform agnostic or software package choice agnostic... I think the best choice is to have a brief platform agnostic tutorial that cross links to platform/software package specific detailed tutorials... if possible so like:

Create a Texture with dimentions blahxblah in blah format in your software of choice [Windows/Linux Gimp][Windows Teragen][Windows Photoshop]

rather then trying to make the detailed tutorials platform/software choice agnostic... ideally after One such tutorial is written you could us it as a template for other platforms/software packages.

[FLOZi]

I think it's good to include a few different beginners tutorials, since many ppl like to use different bits of software and put different amounts of time into mapmaking. Also some basic working templates (even if its just a heightmap, texturemap, metal map and mapconv command line), I have the feeling most beginners struggle to get to even that point.

Beyond stuff for beginner, well organised and accurate docu of the features spring can use (easier said than done xD) is all we need imo.

I don't think it's a good idea to have an explicit feature for people request 'dream' maps. I've never known anyone make a map for someone on that basis.

Agree with all of this. 'Dream' requests can be made via forum or 1-to-1 with map maker if its a prestige map for a game (ala S44 Moro River)

[enetheru]

so.. scratch the dreams part.

The hard part about hotwo's incorporating specific applications is that it increases the maintenance burden, as each application is evolving at its own rate, so changes would need to be made to the docs when and if the application process changes. I guess versioning the application in the doc would mitigate this to some small degree.

* Use of wiki category "Map making"
* use of wiki templating for game or application specific info.
* use of a "tips" template for helpful additional info
* use of a "caution" template for when mistakes are easily made.
* use of version templates for when a feature was introduced into the engine
* clear naming scheme for pages, like Mapping:page, or something..

Lets see if we can form some hierarchy structure
Map_development

• Paragraph explaining maps
• link to blueprint
• beginners tutorial
  • Stage 1
    • example download
      height
      texture
      metal/resource
      minimap
    Stage 2
    • example download
      features
      detail splatting
      lighting
    Compiling
• technical documentation
  • mapinfo.lua
    SMT format
    SMF format
    diffuse
    height
    mini
    metal
    type
    specular
    detail
    splat
    normal
    parallax
    grass
    skybox
    water
    lighting
    features
    sounds
    scripting
• Howto's
  • voidwater/space
• Tools
  • Mapconv
    MapconvNG
    etc
• Troubleshooting
  • Pink Map
    solid archive
• site map/map development wiki todo

I'm sure there is stuff I'm forgetting/missing.. please provide input.

[enetheru]

collapsible elements
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Co ... e_elements

tested in our wiki and it works

this way we can describe something generically, then have collapsed sections you can expand for platform or game specific information without cluttering up the page.

[Silentwings]

I think that index looks good. Great to see someone working on this :)

In the tutorial, should say something about compiling after stage 1 as well as after stage 2.

I think it would make sense to find a person for each tool who's used it alot (like WM, Carrera, Photoshop, SpringMapEdit, ... ) and persuade them to write a bit on it. Although these programs do evolve, I think mostly they evolve slow enough that keeping sensible things written on the wiki won't be a big trouble.

I'd be happy to help write some of this stuff.

[enetheru]

I think that index looks good. Great to see someone working on this :)

In the tutorial, should say something about compiling after stage 1 as well as after stage 2.

The process would be the same so write it once and link twice

I think it would make sense to find a person for each tool who's used it alot (like WM, Carrera, Photoshop, SpringMapEdit, ... ) and persuade them to write a bit on it. Although these programs do evolve, I think mostly they evolve slow enough that keeping sensible things written on the wiki won't be a big trouble.

I'd be happy to help write some of this stuff.

I can almost guarantee you that this won't happen, but its worth designing the structure so that its possible easily

[PicassoCT]

a porn site

[KaiserJ]

For years I've been thinking of making a map tutorial; Would cover stuff that probably isn't elsewhere like using vectors to draw a heightmap, SpringMapEdit (mostly texture settings and the like), lighting in 3dmax, and then the weirder stuff I enjoy like merging meshes and bumpmapping textures.

any takers?

picasso will be first to submit nudes for the wiki?

[enetheru]

For years I've been thinking of making a map tutorial; Would cover stuff that probably isn't elsewhere like using vectors to draw a heightmap, SpringMapEdit (mostly texture settings and the like), lighting in 3dmax, and then the weirder stuff I enjoy like merging meshes and bumpmapping textures.

any takers?

all of those would fit into the howto's section, only thing i would advise is to make each one as atomic as possible, dealing with a single aspect of map making. that way they can be linked to from the technical pages or from the beginners tute. and allow for better categorisation.

[enetheru]

so I've been thinking about categories and naming schemes of pages.

And I want to keep it short and simple

all map development pages would need to have
[[Category:Development]]
[[Category:Mapdev]]

And would be named:
Mapdev:Something

application specific docs would also get categories for themselves
ie
[[Category:Blender]]

Howto style docs should be added to
[[Category:Howto]]

I have an index to build, will be back with more updates.

[enetheru]

@FLOZi, I'm going to need to you to delete a bunch of my pages soon as I incorporate the information from the into these pages.

[enetheru]

can someone please confirm that mapconvNG works on windows for me? I would prefer only list a single option than have users make a choice so early into the beginners tutorial.. less confusion the better.

http://springrts.com/wiki/MapConvNG

[FLOZi]

@FLOZi, I'm going to need to you to delete a bunch of my pages soon as I incorporate the information from the into these pages.

Add {{delete}} to them and poke me

[enetheru]

http://springrts.com/wiki/Mapdev:Main

i would rather have criticism earlier than later, bring it on!

[FireStorm_]

Looks good.

(If Mapdev:detailsplat is about stuff like Geo-textures, then i believe everything is there.)

I think adding images is a great idea. I'm thinking lots of small images showing an in-game example of an effect, next to where it says what values to change. And also screen-shots of certain map making actions being preformed. (I could make them if you agree)



And I think it might be a good idea to address the 'special gimmicks' that exist for spring maps. I mean (Behe's)bridge, and teleporters (Knorke's pacman map), collums (zwzsg's hexfarm), stuff like that.

Often newcomers have grandiose ideas and plans, but it can be genuinely motivating to know something cool is possible, even though it will take very long to actually accomplish it (if at all).

And of course it can benefit people who do have the skill level to implement these gimmicks. Naturally it wouldn't be a priority but you could think about it.

[PicassoCT]

Often newcomers have grandiose ideas and plans, but it can be genuinely motivating to know something cool is possible, even though it will take very long to actually accomplish it (if at all).

And of course it can benefit people who do have the skill level to implement these gimmicks. Naturally it wouldn't be a priority but you could think about it.

Years and years i v been sayin that- and i always attracted the leNukes-Crowd shouting out loud "They should learn to make a map via comandline". I demand him to be publicly flocked for noob-appeasement as i was.

Seriously, making stuff should be as funny and omnipotent feeling as a godgames tutorial. One click-a-deClick raises mountain, next lowers it. Lava here, water there, aweSum everywhere- and i did it (means the authors name should be first and then the map name appended (Forbs-Two Rivers) something like that.

We have this nice 3d editor to make maps, although the gui is a little to ProFriendly. Time to bundle it with the engine, this has to be there when you download the engine. The editor goes along with every official engine too. So screw the "This is not a game- and has to be lightwight-attitude".

[enetheru]

Looks good.

(If Mapdev:detailsplat is about stuff like Geo-textures, then i believe everything is there.)

I think adding images is a great idea. I'm thinking lots of small images showing an in-game example of an effect, next to where it says what values to change. And also screen-shots of certain map making actions being preformed. (I could make them if you agree)

I plan on creating a concept map that will be used for the screenshots, and beginners tutorial, such that documentation is consistent, and it will be downloadable for beginners to test ideas out..

multiple screenshots/gif animations of varying values in the mapinfo.lua file would be very welcome, time consuming to make.

And I think it might be a good idea to address the 'special gimmicks' that exist for spring maps. I mean (Behe's)bridge, and teleporters (Knorke's pacman map), collums (zwzsg's hexfarm), stuff like that.

Often newcomers have grandiose ideas and plans, but it can be genuinely motivating to know something cool is possible, even though it will take very long to actually accomplish it (if at all).

And of course it can benefit people who do have the skill level to implement these gimmicks. Naturally it wouldn't be a priority but you could think about it.

Absolutely, given that things like that are usually ad hock and in mid development, ie not mature enough to document thoroughly, do you think another section after howto's calles something like "WIP/concepts" with links to forum discussions would suffice? what would you think is the best format to display such things that are very volatile that documenting them in detail would be a waste of time.

on an unrelated note:
honestly the more i work on the map making wiki the more i feel that mapconv should be incorporated into the source tree and kept maintained with the rest of the source code

that a "game" should be made that incorporates forbs feature placer, and also terrain sculpting, map attribute(mapinfo.lua modifications. I don't have the skillz yet to start on that.. perhaps some day.