Gameplay idea: Active Cover

Gameplay idea: Active Cover

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Warlord Zsinj
Imperial Winter Developer
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Gameplay idea: Active Cover

Post by Warlord Zsinj »

I think it's been a little while since we've seen some gameplay related ideas, with most discussions focusing on XTA balancing (yeuch ;) ) and development details, so I'll throw something into the fray.

I think that something extra is needed in terms of terrain-strategy interaction on top of the already implemented ability for mappers to set terrain type to affect unit classes differently. Now, I've raised this before, but it was a long time ago, and was mixed in with a number of other ideas, so I feel it is worth raising it on its own.

I think that when units are in a heavily forested area, they should cloak when they have remained immobile for a certain amount of time. That is all units below a certain size (so krogoths, bulldogs and other big units can't hide), free of charge.


My entire premise for this idea is based on this quote:
All Warfare is based on Deception.
- Sun Tzu
Currently, with the big radar dots on the main screen, and the ghosted buildings, there isn't much room for deception in Spring. I think that this could potentially change that, by making all sorts of cloak-and-dagger tactics available to players. Ambushes, which thus far have been impossible in Spring, all of a sudden become a viable tactic.

Please note that it is a very important aspect of this idea that units are only hidden from view when they are motionless, so that as soon as a unit moves, or aims to fire, it becomes visible to all players with LOS on that area. This means that if a player wants to do an ambush properly, he is going to have to use the "hold position" and "holdfire/returnfire" commands cleverly.
It is also an important element that Units do not become immediately invisible as soon as they stop moving in a forested area. They have to sit there for a certain amount of time (I'd say somewhere between 15 seconds to a minute). This is to represent units having to "conceal" themselves, and it helps to balance it, so that you don't have units mysteriously disappearing into trees in the blink of an eye.

There are two ways that I can think of (please think of more) to implement this into Spring, I think:

1) This is the most simple, but also the most limited way. This is to use a simple system similar to the way units are slowed down by certain terrain. Mappers simply paint out areas where their forests are (or anything else that they might want to offer cover, for that matter). The problem with this is that trees are destructible features, meaning that an area which might be set to offer cover could well have no trees by the end of the game. This means that units would get cover bonuses when there wasn't any cover.

2) The second, more complicated way is to have some complicated hardcoding, whereby units can tell that they are in cover by detecting the trees around them, and then cloaking. I don't think this would be too many instances, and would not cause too much slow down, because units would only look for trees in their vicinity when they have remained motionless for a certain period of time.

I realise that these two ways are both not perfect; but I am also not very proficient at all with coding, nor do I perfectly understand the Spring engine, so I don't want to venture any more complicated solutions. Please feel free to suggest better ones.

I think this idea would contribute to the strategic and tactical elements of Spring, meaning that players have even more strategic options at their disposal.
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Maelstrom
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Post by Maelstrom »

While I agree this could be a handy feature for some mods, I really dont see this working in any TA based mods. My reason? THESE ARE GIANT BLOODY ROBOTS! Your really dont see many robot-death-machines bending down and picking up a branch or two to make some camoflage for them selfs do you?

But that being said, this would be good to have for some mods. However, as there are no mods that really need it, I think that this is not really a priority. And if dj_oldfield's new scripting thing is as good as he is saying it is (which is possible, he seem to know what hees saying) then this could possibly be implemented via that. We will just have to wait and see I guess.
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
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Post by [K.B.] Napalm Cobra »

How about a simpler solution. Trees block los?
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PauloMorfeo
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Post by PauloMorfeo »

[K.B.] Napalm Cobra wrote:How about a simpler solution. Trees block los?
Don't they already?
Must go check it out.
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Min3mat
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Post by Min3mat »

i love the idea. coz it would not be necessary map makers who thought that it'd suck without there actually being trees wouldn't have to include it. personally i think it would be awesome, the pursuit of a AK leading to a ambush :lol:
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Weaver
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Post by Weaver »

PauloMorfeo wrote:
[K.B.] Napalm Cobra wrote:How about a simpler solution. Trees block los?
Don't they already?
Must go check it out.
Not sure if they do, but isn't LOS a bit CPU intensive already.

Although hiding and effective camo would be good features to have.

(I also don't know how optimized the LOS code is already I can think of few tricks but they may already be in.)
MrAstrup
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004, 16:52

Excellent idea!

Post by MrAstrup »

I think this is an excellent idea for Spring.

It is not enough just to let the trees block the line of sight. The radar can still spot the units.

When pressing a certain F-key it should also be possble to see the area where you hide your units.

It means that units should also be invisible when hiding behind wrecks!!!!!!
This would make attacks even better I think.
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AF
AI Developer
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Post by AF »

I would prefer ti if we could set abilities like radar jamming to units so that they cloaked instead (partially so as not to create invisible bases). Such a thign would surely create an effective way to ambush.

Also this would affect the vornoi system I've bene researching in odd ways. The voronoi system is capable of anticpating firing range and coverage of a path.

Also i think that it would be ncie to have a single unti show a dissarrayed roving mass of blips around it, or distort them so they shifted around more, or phased in and out so you knew a large mass was there but you didnt know exactly how big it was.
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Zoombie
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Post by Zoombie »

Firsthings first:

Yank out gosted buildings.

Then put in the First Idea, as this would actually make a whol lot of sence. Another good hide tactic is to ambush a navy with stelthed seaplanes resting at the ociean floor. Tweak the game to make it so!
Warlord Zsinj
Imperial Winter Developer
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Post by Warlord Zsinj »

Those tanks aren't all that much bigger than your regular modern tank. Vehicles were regular hidden amongst trees and forests in WWII; it became an almost essential tactic.

Of course, it would be a far better tactic to use for kbots, because kbots are lighter units that can go around the trees, and would be far better at laying ambushes than vehicles. Which I think is excellent, because it makes people think harder about the units they are using for what situation, instead of just building the one with the biggest guns for the least cost.

I know I'd love to have the option for SWTA, but I think it is relevant to many other mods, and definitely TA and XTA too.

Besides, even if you still think it is a bit of a stretch to hide units in forests - who cares? Why let something as silly as logic get in the way of a good gameplay addition?
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SwiftSpear
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Post by SwiftSpear »

Warlord Zsinj wrote:Those tanks aren't all that much bigger than your regular modern tank. Vehicles were regular hidden amongst trees and forests in WWII; it became an almost essential tactic.

Of course, it would be a far better tactic to use for kbots, because kbots are lighter units that can go around the trees, and would be far better at laying ambushes than vehicles. Which I think is excellent, because it makes people think harder about the units they are using for what situation, instead of just building the one with the biggest guns for the least cost.

I know I'd love to have the option for SWTA, but I think it is relevant to many other mods, and definitely TA and XTA too.

Besides, even if you still think it is a bit of a stretch to hide units in forests - who cares? Why let something as silly as logic get in the way of a good gameplay addition?
I was told that the scale in TA is MASSIVE compared to current day tanks. Peewees are supposed to be 20 feet tall... Therefore bulldogs would have a base size of roughly 50 feet, even light tanks would be absolutly massive.
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Weaver
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Post by Weaver »

The problem with the LOS method is that if you can't see in, you can't see out which would spoil the advantage.

WZ's method could be added quite easily, you would just need to check the tree (or other feature) density in that location and modify for the height of the unit v height of tree (or feature) to decide if cloaking is possible.

Should units be able to hide behind other units?
tanelorn
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Post by tanelorn »

Maybe trees blocking LOS is too intensive, but how about forests acting to at least block radar? Ground clutter should stop radar cold in the first place. For that matter, I'd say that areas with alot of rubble and dead bodies should affect your ability to see units hiding in it on radar as well.

Or, have two types of radar... airborn look down radar, and ground radar. Also a shorter range infra red / energy detection sensor could be worthwhile. Idle units would not show up on energy detection max range, but when their engines are revving and they are moving, the would. Unit size could enter into detection as well.

How to do that? Tags. Easy. Just give every unit a tag for size or a tag for energy signature. This would allow smaller low signature units like kbots to sneak under the radar but big tanks or hi-tech units would be detected.

It also would allow for missile guidance based on energy signature and countermeasures. If a missile is launched, it homes in on the highest energy sig unit in front of it. So if a tank with a high signature tag is mixed with a set of little kbots, the missing would go towards him as the others would be giving out weaker sihlouettes.

Having multiple sensor types and different ways to avoid detection would make for some great new tactics based on jamming, ECCM, and unit composition.
Doomweaver
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Post by Doomweaver »

I agree. Trees should play a bigger role.
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

okay, I'm soooooo going to get flamed for this, but:

what if forests and radar could be used for cover in a different way:
make all units and features show up on radar as blips. Since radar can't differentiate one kind of unit from another, why should it differentiate between units on different teams? Meaning this: Remove color identification from radar. This would make it a lot easier to use forests, rock piles (if they are made), and wreckage fields for radar cover. Of course, this means that automatically shooting at radar blips will have to be removed or disabled, but maybe instead the targetting facility (or targetting tag in general) can be modified so that once you build one, all moving radar blips will be ID'ed as hostiles.
Just my 2 cents
tanelorn
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Post by tanelorn »

I think having the Targeting Facility enhance radar is a great idea.
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Kuroneko
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Post by Kuroneko »

tanelorn wrote:I think having the Targeting Facility enhance radar is a great idea.
completely original too
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Zoombie
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Post by Zoombie »

FizWizz wrote:okay, I'm soooooo going to get flamed for this, but:

what if forests and radar could be used for cover in a different way:
make all units and features show up on radar as blips. Since radar can't differentiate one kind of unit from another, why should it differentiate between units on different teams? Meaning this: Remove color identification from radar. This would make it a lot easier to use forests, rock piles (if they are made), and wreckage fields for radar cover. Of course, this means that automatically shooting at radar blips will have to be removed or disabled, but maybe instead the targetting facility (or targetting tag in general) can be modified so that once you build one, all moving radar blips will be ID'ed as hostiles.
Just my 2 cents
What? Flamed!


That is one of the best idea's i have ever heard. Make radar detect everything from wrecks to units and buildings, but make them all grey. Then once you get advanced radar or a targeting facility the radar can actualy tell the difference between a blob of bouceback and a unit. That would add in the IFF and allow radar to be used as rageting. BUT! make the mobile radar untis not be keyed into the targeting facility. Defenders need some advantages!

Also think of how this can be used...immagine!

"The radar revealed a large swath of blips. I chewed my lip thoughtfully. The explosions that had rocked the map might of caused this amount of debrie...should i risk my units to a faster route? Mabey i should scout. What if the enemy is hiding all over there and scouting will just set off a large battle. Mabey i should go around. But that might lead me through another trap......hmmmmm"

I want to AGONIZE over sending my units through what MIGHT be a debrie/rock feild that could be empty, filled with mines or worse...the enemy BASE!!!
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[K.B.] Napalm Cobra
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Post by [K.B.] Napalm Cobra »

Nice idea.

Also once you spot things their ghost should replace the radar blips and accuracy should be as normal.
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yuritch
Spring 1944 Developer
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Post by yuritch »

The radar should at least be able to differentiate air targets from ground ones (and possibly naval ones). Even older radars did this, modern ones do this, so futuristic ones should as well.
Also, let's suppose radar can track "blips" so that once a blip was identified as enemy (seen by units) it will stay this way even out of LOS, but if it moves out of radar coverage and then back in, it will be an "unidentified blip" again.
This will give more value to scouts as they will tell you wich of many "blips" are actually enemy units, not just wrecks or rocks.
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