The Various Games

[discodowney]

Hi,

I was on here a good while back saying i might be using one of these games for use with my masters thesis. I was trying a different route for most the summer but that appears to have crapped out so i think this is the best option.

I need a relatively simple game. Someone mentioned Kernel Panic before and i had a look at that, but because there are noe resources it isnt really suitable for my needs, the units getting constantly created is a bit of a problem for me.

So can people reccomend what other games are more simple. Also, is it difficult to remove units from a specific build of a game? Im asking as i know most the games have a good few units, but to begin with i need to just work on one with 2/3 units, then i can add back in the rest as i progress.

Also can, if possible, can people tell me if the AI in the game is Lua or C++ or a mix?

And help is hugely appreciated. Cheers.

(P.S. - Sorry if this is in the wrong thread)

[oksnoop2]

I'd be willing to hack down a a version of conflict terra to only have a few units. Which in turn would make it a very simple game.

[AF]

Move to AI forum

Also can, if possible, can people tell me if the AI in the game is Lua or C++ or a mix?

It can be both, either and none. There is lua gadget based AIs, there are C AIs, there are C++ AIs using the legacy interface, there are C++ AIs using the new interface, there are C++ AIs using lua that use the new interface, there are python AIs, Java AIs, (sure there was a perl AI ), someone even had a C# AI.

Put simply you have a lot of flexibility, and there is no one way of doing it.

If you go for the gadget lua AIs as a lot of content developers will push for, you'll be learning things you can use to mod your own games aswell. However youll be working on modifications of the games, you wont be able to go and play your AI against someone unless you hand them your version of the game.

Then there's C++ land. You can work on a fork of something like Shard and have both lua and C++, build your own C++ AI, and you have examples for both the legacy and new API in the form of the existing AIs, and people who can answer your questions.

I cannot comment on python or java AI development however.

I would reccomend if you are going the C++ route, to use the new API, as you can always add in the legacy API and use both at the same time.

You can find a blogpost that will help get you started here:

http://darkstars.co.uk/2010/vs2008-ais-and-the-c-api/

Keep in mind this needs updating to use the newer C++ Wrappers, which you can find in the AI forums in one of my threads, (hoijui posted them ). Or you can generate them yourself using the source and cmake.

Gamewise, evorts is a nice game to use, you can easily limit the types of units and its a very flat tech tree already

[zwzsg]

Lua or C++ or a mix

All three!

There are two kinds of AI:
- The AI that are external .dll (or .so on Linux), which are programmed in C++ (there's also a java interface for them).
- The AI that are internal to a mod and are just a Lua file, called a gadget, cause the file is stored in \LuaRules\Gadgets\ Oh btw mods are 7zip or zip archive, with folders and files inside. Lua is the scripting language used by Spring, with which you can code new unit behavior and automation. If you code an automated unit behavior complicated enough that it can play game from start to end, then you've got a Lua AI.

External AI strive to support every mod. Well, every *A mod at least. To play well, the external AI can try to guess from the unit properties, or it can be helped by a config file. For exemple KAIK guesses how to play any given mod all alone, and manages quite well. AAI on the other hand, uses a config file per mod, which is a text file with a rather simple syntax. Shard uses two config files per mod, and Shard config files are written in Lua. More than a simple list of unit name and parameters, Shard config files can contain whole function and lots of Lua code. In fact, more than config files, you could say Shard behavior can be scripted in Lua. Shard's Lua however should not be confused by the Lua AIs. The syntax of Shard callins is different from gadget callins for instance.

Lastly, sometimes a mods implements gameplay mechanism so weird it knows no external AI will understand them, so inside the mod, the modder makes a gadget in Lua that detect that the team is played by an AI and perform some action in place of the external AI. For instance, morphing in Conflict Terra.

[AF]

I would consider Shard more of a framework that can already play some games, than an AI with configs. Isnt quite fair to lump it in with the other AIs either as its fundamentally different in its nature

[Johannes]

It isn't fully accurate to say KP has no resources - it just happens to have combined the resource gathering building with unit producing one. Balancing between how many constructors you make is still as crucial as in any game.

But it's also very easy to restrict units from any game.

[Beherith]

Try Simple XTA. It has the following units:
Commander.
Wind, solar and geothermal plants
Metal extractor
Con kbot
Thud
Peewee
Light llaser tower.

[hoijui]

ehh! that sounds cool! perfect for AIs!
i will make it compatible with current spring and post link here.

[hoijui]

did it as a mutator for XTA 9.641 beta:
http://www.springfiles.com/show_file.php?id=2799

tested with spring 0.82.5.1

[AF]

The XTA part makes it a terrible choice for academic AI development.

I would like to see a mutator of Evo RTS repackaged as a standalone game for this

[hoijui]

thats just bullshit.
why should you as an AI dev care for whether the mod you use is IP free or not? that is not your business, and in reality, nobody will sue anyone for Simple XTA. get real!

[AF]

It is a huge problem, and always has been, then there's this:

[hoijui]

for latest version available through rapid:
http://filebin.ca/bnpavv/XTA_9.64_beta_Simple.sd7

[Neddie]

thats just bullshit.
why should you as an AI dev care for whether the mod you use is IP free or not? that is not your business, and in reality, nobody will sue anyone for Simple XTA. get real!

It is a problem for academic research. Legality is taken quite seriously in higher education.

[discodowney]

Hi ,

The whole thing of working on an open source game is very important for the project. The game you mention is it 100% open source? Im not allowed to work on something if theres even the slightest risk of there being some legal problem or issue of money coming into the equation. So with XTA would this be a problem?

Cheers for all the suggestions. Im gonna download them games mentioned here and see which one to pick. Ill get back soon.

Thanks for the help

[discodowney]

I'd be willing to hack down a a version of conflict terra to only have a few units. Which in turn would make it a very simple game.

Hi, Cheers for the offer. Thatd be great. Are you still willing to do this, and if so could you tell me how long it would take?

Thanks

[discodowney]

Im trying to download Evolution RTS but it says on the game page that the game is not officially released. Is this still the case or is there somewhere else to get it. Also it mentions test builds can be gotten but can only do multiplayer. Is there a skirmish version, as i need to be able to play against the CPU?

[AF]

Hi ,

The whole thing of working on an open source game is very important for the project. The game you mention is it 100% open source? Im not allowed to work on something if theres even the slightest risk of there being some legal problem or issue of money coming into the equation. So with XTA would this be a problem?

Cheers for all the suggestions. Im gonna download them games mentioned here and see which one to pick. Ill get back soon.

Thanks for the help

Yes, working on XTA would be an issue, as well as any derivative of XTA, BA, BOTA, TA, SA, MA, NOTA, etc. Basically anything derived from Total Annihilation and its mods is a no go for you.

I suggest working with EvoRTS, or kernel panic.

EvoRTS, I and foreboding can help you with. If you go into springdownloader its listed in the content management, but if you catch foreboding on the lobby I'm sure he'd be more than happy to walk you through if it meant his game getting used in academia again.

You would have a ready made opponent in the form of Shard to benchmark against, and I can vouch that Foreboding has been more than cooperative in development, in making modifications, contributing to Shard, and offering help and suggestions on what to do.

I must also point out that if you intend to distribute your AI publicly on the forums, your AI must be licensed under a GPL compatible license, most preferably GPL itself.

[discodowney]

The program i make will be completely public if its worth releasing. So i will worry about that at the end.

I cant seem to get the Spring Downloader to connect. Just says "disconnected due to network problem". Anyone know what the problem might be here? Is this there any other way to get the game?

[AF]

Are you trying to run it on a university internal network with blocked ports? Evo RTS also has an svn

http://www.evolutionrts.info

PM foreboding angel if you still have issues