Wiki modification request for comment.

[enetheru]

Hi,

I want to help out with the project in my limited fashion, and the wiki seems the lowest barrier of entry to start doing that.

There is alot of old mentality in the wiki about spring being a game. and that's something I wouldn't mind cleaning out, little by little.

To start this, what I want to do is remove the "playing Spring" from the main menu, and put it somewhere else. I was thinking that BA might be a good place to put it.
There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

Let me know your thoughts in this. or perhaps if there is a "right" way of doing it.

[enetheru]

cool, no replies.

That means the issue ain't under contention.

If I don't get a response in the negative, or suggestions on how, I will just proceed as I see fit.

its late tonight. so i will check again in the morning.

[Jazcash]

There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

Don't you even think about touching the wiki.

[AF]

There is a problem here

Last time the site was updated, there was a common consensus that the main wiki page was a problem, far too many links, a wall fo text, and veyr intimidating.

I had made a design site that had numerous menu items at the top that were all wiki pages, and this site had hardcoded html pages. It was decided that a similar approach would be taken here.

So, the wiki page lost its link in the top menu, and everything on the left hand side was copied to one page, and everything on the right, to another, and then some where moved onto other pages that were more appropriate, then I laid everything out so the pages themselves had structure.

It was good, it was more logical, prettier, more organised, and better to use.

For example, the Game development section, is a smaller and more primitive version of what we have if you click on Development in the top menu. It is more cramped, it lacks the side links to the commit news feed and bug tracker, and some of the links on the dev page are missing from the main wiki page

BUT, some people, who had never bothered clicking on these pages, complained there was no way to view the wiki main page, and so most of the wiki was lost, oblivious to the fact that all the links, and more, were on top level pages. Some people simply wished to view everything on one page. Bowing into pressure from the minority, the wiki link was re-added, despite the confusion it would cause to those not already in the know.

Now we have 2 possible places for every kind of update we add, and as a result the two have diverged. The wiki page in itself isnt an intuitive place to go, and shouldn't be kept, but it persists. People will click on help, not wiki, when they want help, it just makes more sense.

[enetheru]

People will click on help, not wiki, when they want help, it just makes more sense.

Didnt even see the help link till you said it then. I guess I instinctively look for wiki as a source of all documentation.

There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

Don't you even think about touching the wiki.

Sure thing, no contributions from a budding community member for u.. not really a good way to encourage people is it. perhaps a little word on what needs change, or why you think that my statement deserves such a response.

Perhaps you thought you were being funny but I see no smilies. oh sorry I forgot this is the internet....

This wiki needs your help!
"A wiki is a web application that allows users to add content, as on an Internet forum, but also allows anyone to edit the content." - Wikipedia.org
The spring project is very dependent on its community of users to help new players and developers. If you see anything here where a change would be helpful, please put it in. We are currently working together at the Wiki ToDo page to help coordinate improvements.
Any contributions you make to this Wiki are in the public domain. If you need help with the wiki markup, the help page is an excellent resource.

its late. I'm going to bed.

[AF]

If you have changes for the better, Im sure nobody will oppose them, just lay them out in this thread then head off to the wiki, and if theres a backlash, revert

[enetheru]

If you have changes for the better, Im sure nobody will oppose them, just lay them out in this thread then head off to the wiki, and if theres a backlash, revert

Well that just doesn't fly with the dynamics of humans. there will always be someone who opposes.

And I haven't had anyone actually address the specific change I wish to make. or provide an alternate task. (for otherwise I would have to go searching for one).

What is so bad about moving clearly spring unrelated material off the main page?

[Jazcash]

If you have changes for the better, Im sure nobody will oppose them, just lay them out in this thread then head off to the wiki, and if theres a backlash, revert

Well that just doesn't fly with the dynamics of humans. there will always be someone who opposes.

And I haven't had anyone actually address the specific change I wish to make. or provide an alternate task. (for otherwise I would have to go searching for one).

What is so bad about moving clearly spring unrelated material off the main page?

Instead of TA-ifying the Wiki, be helpful and un-TA-ify it.

[AF]

That kind of leaves the problem that a lot of that section is not specific to BA and useful elsewhere.

Some obvious parts of that section could be trimmed, like groupAIs, which were removed in an engine update a few months ago

[Neddie]

Jaz is being dramatic.

Moving that information to more relevant sections would be useful, as long as there are alternative sections for the other games and mods constructed. I might be able to contribute there, but not until Thursday.

[Jazcash]

Jaz is being dramatic.

Moving that information to more relevant sections would be useful, as long as there are alternative sections for the other games and mods constructed. I might be able to contribute there, but not until Thursday.

I'm partially serious, as much as I'm all for updating the wiki and keeping it fresh, I believe Spring should try and keep things as TA-clean as possible.

Spring's original goal was to create the same TA experience but on the Spring Engine. Now we're way passed that goal, I think it's about time Spring's current goals were made clear.

I would have thought "*Making new, user created content filled games without using copyrighted or stolen content" would be one of the goals.

As much as I love BA, I don't believe it should be officially supported or promoted. BA is rarely updated and when it is, usually only minor balance changes are made. BA should always still be available to play but engine changes shouldn't be held back because it might break BA's behaviour. Games like BA should be shaped to fit the engine, and not the other way around.

Then there's the obvious fact that the TA-based games are what they say on the tin. Most the content is copied from TA, without permission from Cavedog, and there's always the slim possibility that Atari stroll by and decide to start shooting.

Another big reason is the sheer shame that there's so many fresh, user-created projects for Spring, most of which don't get to see a shimmer of dawn because of the overwhelming, sun-blocking ability of BA. If you make BA less "Welcome to Spring, here's all you'll need", then other projects become more popular and in turn, Spring becomes more of a completely community created wonder in its entirety.

BA shouldn't be the only reason the majority of people play Spring, which I'm sad to say, is currently the case.

This is why I'm completely against making a bunch of pages and articles in the official Spring Wiki about TA based games and modifications.

[knorke]

There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

I think some things - camera movement, waypoints, (ally)chat, startboxes, etc - will always work the same way in all games. Not counting superspecial mods of course. This will probally always stay relevant.

The wiki imo is complety fubar for new players. Guides tutorialvideos or "quick reference" sheets might be more helpful than another article with no images that gets lost in the endless wiki.

[AF]

I'm partially serious, as much as I'm all for updating the wiki and keeping it fresh, I believe Spring should try and keep things as TA-clean as possible.

Spring's original goal was to create the same TA experience but on the Spring Engine. Now we're way passed that goal, I think it's about time Spring's current goals were made clear.

Im aghast that anybody could disagree with this at all, +1

The wiki is a poor vessel for communication, improvements to its wording and layout are good, but the necessary conceptual overhaul is not going to happen, since people cant see past simply rewritting and organising page structure, and to instead see each wiki page for what ti is, part of a website, a webpage.

[JohannesH]

BA should always still be available to play but engine changes shouldn't be held back because it might break BA's behaviour.

Enginge changes optimally shouldn't break the behaviour of any game.


Would be really cool though if someone made a proper website for the TA mods, would make both this site and TA games advertising look much better

[enetheru]

Instead of TA-ifying the Wiki, be helpful and un-TA-ify it.

Well I think I would be doing exactly this. because the "play spring" sections were written with TA style game in mind. alot of the language they use is specific to TA games. with reference to arm and core, pictures that use TA artwork etc.

Moving it to a sub page of BA moves it away from an association with spring in general.

That kind of leaves the problem that a lot of that section is not specific to BA and useful elsewhere.

Some obvious parts of that section could be trimmed, like groupAIs, which were removed in an engine update a few months ago

Yes it could be useful for other games but only as a cut and paste modified version because of the references to TA all through it.

Jaz is being dramatic.

Moving that information to more relevant sections would be useful, as long as there are alternative sections for the other games and mods constructed. I might be able to contribute there, but not until Thursday.

thanks for the support, your statement does bring to mind another thought about the direction of springrts.com. It appears that springrts.com is a sort of breeding ground for new games, where new developers have access to the wiki and forums till they can break away on their own website. However its not clear whether that's a valid assertion. whether its true or not will define whether game specific information even belongs in the wiki at all.

I'm partially serious, as much as I'm all for updating the wiki and keeping it fresh, I believe Spring should try and keep things as TA-clean as possible.

This is why I'm completely against making a bunch of pages and articles in the official Spring Wiki about TA based games and modifications.

Well I'm completely serious. and you must not have read the "play spring" guides because that's what you already have but on the main page
instead of a more appropriate page.

What my change would do is lessen the association to TA overall. not increase.

I'm not planning on updating the information really, with the exception of AF's suggestion to remove group AI. and proof read it.

There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

I think some things - camera movement, waypoints, (ally)chat, startboxes, etc - will always work the same way in all games. Not counting superspecial mods of course. This will probally always stay relevant.

The wiki imo is complety fubar for new players. Guides tutorialvideos or "quick reference" sheets might be more helpful than another article with no images that gets lost in the endless wiki.

you speak in contradictions like "always but not including", "probably always".

The wiki is not about teaching players to play its about teaching content developers to develop. the games are the ones who provide the player content.

so having a "playing spring" on the main page, and in the help section is bogus.

Im aghast that anybody could disagree with this at all, +1

The wiki is a poor vessel for communication, improvements to its wording and layout are good, but the necessary conceptual overhaul is not going to happen, since people cant see past simply rewritting and organising page structure, and to instead see each wiki page for what ti is, part of a website, a webpage.

I agree with the sentiments of Jazcash too, but I don't think he understands that, and that I would be working to improve the current status.

An unmanaged wiki is a poor vessel for communications. which is unfortunately what a lot of communities do.

A managed wiki can be a wonderful tool.

BA should always still be available to play but engine changes shouldn't be held back because it might break BA's behaviour.

Enginge changes optimally shouldn't break the behaviour of any game.

Would be really cool though if someone made a proper website for the TA mods, would make both this site and TA games advertising look much better

Off topic, but why don't you make it then?

[Forboding Angel]

Long story short, go ahead and do what you want. If the engine devs don't like it they're either edit it or revert it, but what you mentioned sounds good to me.

[Jazcash]

Ok, I think I see the direction you're going now, and it makes sense. A lot of the Wiki content was written many moons ago, when TA-Based modes like AA and BA were the soul goal of Spring. Because of that, a lot of the Wiki pages were written with those games in mind, like the Playing Spring section.

However, a lot of what was written back then, still applies today, although, the other lot of it doesn't.

As long as you're planning on making the pages within the sub-pages of BA or whatever, that's fine.

It was this quote that threw me:

There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

I had the impression that you were thinking of *A games as the future of Spring, when what you meant was the Playing Spring section should be moved because it's becoming less and less relevant because of the move away from *A games.

Apologies ^_^

[Forboding Angel]

TBH the simple truth of the matter is that the game sites themselves need to have manuals of how to play that game. Now, common elements can be shared among some games, the default hotkeys for example.

I haven't gotten too far yet and it's woefully incomplete, but you can see my progress here: http://www.evolutionrts.info/game-manual

[enetheru]

Ok, I think I see the direction you're going now, and it makes sense. A lot of the Wiki content was written many moons ago, when TA-Based modes like AA and BA were the soul goal of Spring. Because of that, a lot of the Wiki pages were written with those games in mind, like the Playing Spring section.

However, a lot of what was written back then, still applies today, although, the other lot of it doesn't.

As long as you're planning on making the pages within the sub-pages of BA or whatever, that's fine.

It was this quote that threw me:

There is some very generic information in the "playing Spring" section. but I'm sure that as time moves on it will only become relevant to *A games.

I had the impression that you were thinking of *A games as the future of Spring, when what you meant was the Playing Spring section should be moved because it's becoming less and less relevant because of the move away from *A games.

Apologies ^_^

Excellent :) glad we cleared that up.

TBH the simple truth of the matter is that the game sites themselves need to have manuals of how to play that game. Now, common elements can be shared among some games, the default hotkeys for example.

I haven't gotten too far yet and it's woefully incomplete, but you can see my progress here: http://www.evolutionrts.info/game-manual

+1

[enetheru]

its done.