core t3

[Hackfresser]

am i the only one who finds core t3 a bit unappealing?
there is no good vanilla combat unit on the list...

karganeths are extremely useful, but pretty bad in plain and simple battles out in the open.
krogs arent even good. also they are almost never an option to build.
juggernaut... i dont even need to mention this thing.
shiva has low armor and not so good range. ive never seen them used successfully.
catapult has too low armor to be at the front.

i think core should have something thats in between of razorback and bantha. powerful, no special abilites, and you should be able to build it in non-retarded games.

on another note, i think that vanguards need some nerf of sorts. isnt this supposed to be a support unit? often enough poeple will just build vanguards and nothing else with their gantry, and do extremely well with this.

[Pxtl]

I assume you meant nerf, not buff on the vanguard.

And really, the Shiva and the Goli are as close as you're going to get.

[KaiserJ]

shiva is like a more mobile version of the goliath. it requires some rocket-bot style micro, but can be extremely effective.

yeah vanguard needs a nerf i think (but what do i know)

i would love to see a "marauder" style minimech, but that doesnt really fit the whole core theme i guess

juggernaut is slow as shit, but if you can actually get them into play, they are awesome (as well as a krog)

[JohannesH]

Vanguard is fun

Unlike a lot of other stuff at that phase of the game, vanguard is actually cool and rewarding to micro... Rather see a game end with slow pushing vanguard bombard than emp+nuke or bomber/scoutplane spam or such.

[Wombat]

Greetz,

BA would need many things.
But many things most likely wont change anymore.
BA is done - complete.
Not being developed.
Just maintained.
It's dead.
So stop suggesting improvements for It cos It sounds stupid and pointless.

Thx.

regards,
Artturi

[HectorMeyer]

retarded games

Retarded? No way, the late game is when the focus shifts to strategic changes and decisions, and mindless ecoing doesn't win anymore. It's pretty interesting how in the late game it doesn't really make a difference anymore if your team has 15 or 30 adv fusions. It's all about reevaluating the battlefield situation, adaptive thinking and being able to develop and execute new plans. That being said, I have to agree that the majority of "late games" are indeed retarded.

My opinion about T3 core bots:

I agree that Krogs are rarely ever useful to build. Their overall performance is great, and they are well suited for assaults - in theory at least. In practice, they often get sniped, bombed, gunshipped, vulcaned and berthaed. They are also infamous for their notoriously weak dgun resistance. Still, combined with proper unit support (easier said than done) to protect from dgun they can be a very effective unit. The main problem with Krogs is that a Vulcan is always a better investment for the same price. Vulcans eat Krogs for breakfast, and do guaranteed damage to the enemy base if it's in range. Once the game gets into the late game stage, its always a better idea to go mass air or Vulcan than make a Krogoth. If I were to suggest a change for it, i'd give it a bit higher LRPC resistance (wasn't the Krog given a LRPC weakness a while ago?). Also, the Vulcan needs some nerfing. I am thinking higher metal cost, and something like a large cooldown period after a certain number of shots. Also revert the turret turnrate buff.

Juggernauts indeed are pretty weak. The combination of lack of speed and sparse armament makes it unsuitable for assaults, except for a supporting role. On the contrary, they are half as expensive, and have twice as much HP as the Krogoth. They might be good for defending your base / soaking up damage, but its unlikely players want to spend resources just for that. Still, an interesting unit - if you get after the disappointment of not having found the i-win-button by building it. Just for fun, another one for the never-to-be-implemented-ideas-pool: Why not give the Juggernaut 95% LRPC resistance, to make it especially suited for late game attacks?

Catapults are nice artillery units, and great for initiating assaults on fortified positions before the game get's into the real late stages. They do good damage over a large area, and unlike the Vanguards which fail hard against shields, the Catapult straight ignores them. They are also pretty fast and agile and are usable for hit and run tactics. Still, the Vanguard could use some kind of nerf. While being quite slow, It is still just a too powerful combination of cheap tank, artillery + heavy armor. Not to mention all terrain. Some nerfing ideas: lower HP, higher cost, turret + unit turnrate down, lower weapon range (emphasizing tank role), remove of low traj (emphasizing artillery role).

Personally, i hate the allterrain ability of T3 units in general btw, it should be removed. If you want allterrain, you should stick to T2.

Indeed the core t3 bots are quite different to the arm ones, just like the t2 bots. Shiva and Karganeth, while maybe being a bit weaker than the arm bots, are still comparable units. Bantha is an interesting half-breed of massable unit and krogoth. I actually like the idea of a reduced-bantha unit for the core, it would give core the heaviest unit in the massable department, stressing their heavy unit focus, but I guess it's another idea for the "pool".

Mass air and Vulcan *cough*andEMPmissilelauncher*cough* are still the only real "undefendable" weapons and stalemate enders. Ground assaults become impossible against Vulcan or mass Berthas. Mass air can only be countered by even more air (although flak and other static AA does help), and I've never seen anyone build enough shields to block a Vulcan. You probably need 15 or so, just to cover one target.

[Pxtl]

The importance of the Krog's nuke-self-D can't be underestimated. When fighting extreme porc, this can be very useful - send in the Krog and have an army of faster units waiting on the wings. When the Krog dies, the enemy's front line will be torn to ribbons by the Krog and its nukedeath.

Of course, I have no idea how effective this is normally, but it works well on metal maps.