We need a links page

[Caydr]

Forum topics come and go, and not everyone reads the forum. We need a new Wiki page with a top-level link to it. By top-level, I mean it should be up there with "home, news, about, games, development" etc.

The page should list things like places to download content, other fansites, as well as links to the mods' (games') homepages and/or forums.

For example, Person A wants to steal ideas from a new mod he's just heard about due to policy changes at the forum. Let's call the mod P.A.N.T.S. But Person A, though perhaps godlike in both intellect and form, has no way of getting further information. A sad, sad state of affairs.

Also, places to download Spring side-projects or whatever could be listed. For example I have no idea at all where to locate the latest versions of our lobby programs, and neither would anyone else if they didn't have the luck to find the appropriate thread.

[Argh]

Practically everything on your list is all right here:


If the issue is how to find particular parts of it, then you need to point to specific areas where flow might be improved. I mean, I may know where things are, but that's just me, maybe it's confusing to other folks. As for getting information about specific people's projects... that's what the PM button is for.

[Caydr]

My point is, I've been comparing the Spring site's organizational structure to other ones I've found to be very helpful and instantly intuitive.

If I wanted to, I could find the information I want, but we put enough hassles into the process of getting a working game going for a newbie already.

No links page, no FAQ, and the wiki is often, at best, out of date. No "home" page for the wiki either, so I can't just post the things I think should be there.

• Download it. But remember, you're not really downloading anything you can just push "go" on. Downloading a game that isn't playable in even the most basic sense of the word, and this is not a bug... is a new concept to many people.
• Figure out you need to actually download the games and maps still based on an error message that tells you no files could be found.
• Figure out what you want to download. What mods are popular? Does this map work with this mod? We have no easily-visible server statistics, I haven't seen a link anywhere to the /stats/ page in a while.
• Figure out how to install it, which thankfully might be a little easier now that we have the auto-installer and data directories that are located somewhere a bit easier to find.
• Go online. You need to update. But you try to update and it crashes. The client doesn't work. Either search the forum for a fix or register and post a question. Wait for an answer that doesn't come from some sarcastic douchebag has-been.
• Install the new lobby. Try to join a game. Do you want to download this map? Yes. OK. Wait. Nothing happens. Try again. Nothing happens. Wait for it.... yeah, sorry the client doesn't work to do that either. Ask about it. Find out you have to download maps manually. Where from? That's a secret.
• Get frustrated because the client screws up in some other way that could have been detected by attempting to use it prior to release. Find out about TASClient. Find a working link. No, that's old, get one at this site: link. It's a rickroll, son of a bitch caydr just ruined your night. Lose faith in humanity, become dangerously inebriated, pass out.
• Wake up, realize you didn't spawn as Caydr this time either. Feel disappointed in yourself all morning, then quit your job and stay home to play computer games in your underwear. Stars align and you get a match going after only 45 minutes of fiddling.
• Your commander gets sent for some front-line work in your team's valiant war on terrorists somewhere on the other side of the map. Via an Atlas. Feel very proud of the confidence your teammates have placed in you for 17 seconds, then ragequit and go back to Starcraft.

A links page, at least, would reduce the number of steps.

The bit about stealing from ANTS was a joke obviously, I don't even know what it is. Part about being godlike, not.

edit: woot fixed my list.

[SpliFF]

Hmm. This is practically MTR. The top menu covers the basic categories, the rest is wiki, so you can fix it if you want. The homepage links to community sites like spring.info.

The installer issues are well known and there have been several attempts at writing better ones. Most of this stuff works pretty well on Windows, the installer gets what you need and SL gets mods/maps as required (whether it always works is another topic). Writing an installer for linux is pretty pointless, given the number of distros and their different repository systems (rpm, emerge, apt, yum, etc...). Writing a Mac installer is even more pointless since that platform isn't well maintained anyway.

I'm not seeing anything in your post that hasn't been said before.

[Caydr]

I'm not seeing anything in your post that hasn't been said before.

Come on, I was trying to at least throw a couple of new ones in there... but fine, be that way.

Look, give me access to the header HTML or PHP file, whatever it is, I'll add a "links" button for you and then even make the wiki page. It'll propogate to all pages automatically. I'm not asking for anyone to actually do anything to make the game easier to play, heaven forbid.

[Argh]

OK, so maybe on the Download page, it needs to make the sentence:

The files listed here do not contain any game content like maps or playable games. If you want playable out-of-the-box installers, go to the Games Downloads page.

... a little bigger.

I mean, seriously, most of these issues you've brought up simply don't happen with games that come as a full installer package.

[Caydr]

I'm talking about ease of site navigation, not whether one specific issue can be solved with the power of bold text.

I'll try to say this politely: You no longer have a stake in this, so I don't give a crap about your opinion regarding whether or not this is an issue. To you, obviously, it is not only not an issue that should be addressed, it is in your best interest that your customers never see this site, let alone find it easy to use.

Perhaps a links page isn't what's needed, but rather a re-thinking of what should be up there in the first place, and in what order. If I think of it, I'll find some other game/software sites and see if I can put together a list of ideas.

[Argh]

If the website's easy to navigate and people can see my game exists, there's a reasonable chance (maybe 1:100 clickthroughs, probably less) they'll pick up the Demo, which means another potential customer. That's basic marketing, man- there's no conflict of interest.

Anyhow, as I said, if you see a place where the flow can be improved, I'm certainly open to discussing that and sharing ideas.

[Caydr]

That's a crock and I think you know it. I'm not accusing you of anything, just stating the way that business works. You don't do your competitors any favors. A good Spring site means a good AA/BA/CA/SA/*A/S44/EvoRTS/NOTA site, and you're a tiny tiny part of that, not to mention the only one with a fee for entry.

Consciously or not, you know what we are to you. You've got no place in a discussion about if and how our site should be improved.

[Argh]

More traffic, well-directed, means that I get more downloads. It's not complicated, man, and it is game-neutral. Maybe that isn't "ruthlessly competitive" enough for you, but it's my current policy, because the alternatives are all Very Bad.

So, again... do you have something constructive to say here? Or are you just going to keep spouting ridiculous conspiracy theories?

[Pxtl]

I still don't see how the Games page isn't good enough - A wiki is a technical distinction, not a taxonomical one.

[SeanHeron]

Iirc the php / html etc is all either in an Svn or Git - you can definitely submit patches for it, though whether they're accecpted is certainly a different question. No linky from me I'm afraid - don't have.

You might try searching for "Spring cleaning the wiki" (or such) - was a topic where I suggested some similiar changes to you - and I think the link was posted there, sooner or later.

[hoijui]

i can not really say how good the site is for newbs, or in genreal. sure is not perfect.. hardly anything ever is..
a page that contains a lot of info, aranged in a very good way:
http://wikis.sun.com/display/OpenSolarisInfo200906/Home
to me, this is closest to perfect that i have seen so far. ok, it is about an OS, not a game engine, but still:
it has lots of stuff, but still apears so simple. just has these three main categories, which could make sense for spring too, and when you click on one of them, a simple list with short and clear link-names and cathegory titles apears.

[Gota]

All TA modders!
Let's unite and make our own website!!
If only the TA community wasn't in constant war....
Hey Caydr,Let's make a shared Website for SA and AA and an installer,
How about it?
My guess your answer is no?
Spring is an engine not a game it needs to allow people to contribute to the engine easily not play games using the engine.
Unfortunately,the people who are closely involved in maintaining the engine have no desire to advertise TA mods.
This sux but it's a fact.

[Auswaschbar]

Show us a TA mod with a license that allows us to advertise it, and we will start like now.

[Gota]

Show us a TA mod with a license that allows us to advertise it, and we will start like now.

Yep.

[AF]

Moar peoples for ma blogposts muhahahahahahahahahaaa

[Caydr]

Shared SA/AA installer? I'd definitely go for that. We could even share common resource files to save space. Anything at all that anyone at all wants to bundle with AA would be welcomed by me, as long as we can keep it small enough that asshat #3892 doesn't decide to post the a bare AA installer somewhere and make the whole thing an embarrassment.

Back on topic, the point I was trying to make is that the site REALLY, REALLY needs work. The wiki is a nice try but there aren't enough appropriate entry points to it at sections that people are likely to want to look at.

Who wears the pants in this relationship? I want to know where the current site can be found in raw form, and I want to know who I have to throw my changes at in order to be sure they can actually be implemented if they're deemed an improvement.

I've made official websites for a commercial game, an internationally-known precision machine shop, an author, and a book publisher to name a few. I've also made massive comprehensive fansites for a few games, not to mention about a dozen iterations of the official AA site. Spring needs a new one and I'm willing to volunteer.

[Jazcash]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19649

Just a small list compared to the vast amount of stuff that's out there. Post in the thread if you need want me to add anything.

[bobthedinosaur]

No links page, no FAQ, and the wiki is often, at best, out of date.

No kidding.