Munch had some interesting comments on my article. I haven't play UH much, maybe I should. But I was thinking the easiest way to make a game less economic would be to give each player a constant stream of resources. For instance, instead of (or in addition to) 1000 metal and energy to start, give 15 metal and 50 energy per second to each player. Expansion and resource gathering would be relatively less important.
You could combine this with eliminating metal and energy producing structures, and get complete economic equality. Then only strategy and tactics would matter.
It might be fun to have metal/energy income as a battle room option.
Economy/Strategy
Moderator: Moderators
-
FoeOfTheBee
- Posts: 557
- Joined: 12 May 2005, 18:26
Economy/Strategy
Last edited by FoeOfTheBee on 07 Sep 2005, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
TA:Mutation had a couple of mutators that were based on Warp Gates that did that for you, basically giving you various options for how powerful an income you want (up to I think +500/+10000 or something like that) and effectively making resource buildings useless.
I also agree with Munch on UH. Whereas XTA seems a bit boorish to me, UH demands more subtlety and cunning to emerge victorious.
I also agree with Munch on UH. Whereas XTA seems a bit boorish to me, UH demands more subtlety and cunning to emerge victorious.
-
Doomweaver
- Posts: 704
- Joined: 30 Oct 2004, 14:14
I agree totally. And while you're at, make a whole new mod with new units, made specifically for this mod.SinbadEV wrote:what you need to do buddy... is make a mod that modifies the commanders metal and energy to the degree that you suggest and share it with those you feel will like it... that's all you would need to get what you are looking for... would have to be com death=victory in that case though...
The way i see it, it would work best if you didn't reduce energy's role, just metals. Commander could generate 10 metal, and you could remove metal extractors all together. To make the game more interesting, remove metal storage as well, so that when you reclaim wreckages, you need to be ready to use that metal quickly (commander should store 1000 metal)
The way I see it, the commander can build:
-----
KBoT Lab
Vehicle Plant
Aircraft Plant
Shipyard
Seaplane Platform
Hovercraft Platform
LLT
Torpedo Launcher
AA Gun
Radar Tower
Sonar
Energy Storage
Underwater Energy Storage
Solar Collector
Wind Generator
Tidal Generator
-----
Now what you'd do, is you'd have the costs balanced so that the factories are economical equal to the construction KBoT's etc.
The purpose of building a level 2 facotry will not be so much to get stronger units, but rather to get more out of your metal at the expense of energy.
So for example, you might have level 2 units that cost ten times the energy, and are twice the power of a level 1 unit with equal metal cost.
Well that idea was just come up with in a matter of minutes. If anyones interested, i'd be happy to help design the unit stats and everything, but I suck at both coding and modelling. damn.
Also, i think what the rant on you homepage misses is that imho, ressources and resource management are a LOT more important in TA than in other RTS (and yes, its part of the design, taking it away would rob TAs soul)
Take warcraft: yeah, you have doutzends of peons gathering resources... but once they are gathered, nothing can take them away. THey are only used when building units and dont go away by themselfs.
Now look at (even the original) TA: The resources may be inifinite, but you have mines, MOHOs, wind/solar/fusion/geo power plants and the transition to menage, metal and energy storage is a problem, stuff will be wasted if there is not enough storage space or it is destroyed. There are metal makers/ moho metal makers to take into account, and units to produce energy, or need energy even to move (like the warlord). Not to mention the dynamic energy consumption of firering energy weapons, ect.ect.ect.
The resource system is one of the three main reasons TA was better than other RTS, imho.
Take warcraft: yeah, you have doutzends of peons gathering resources... but once they are gathered, nothing can take them away. THey are only used when building units and dont go away by themselfs.
Now look at (even the original) TA: The resources may be inifinite, but you have mines, MOHOs, wind/solar/fusion/geo power plants and the transition to menage, metal and energy storage is a problem, stuff will be wasted if there is not enough storage space or it is destroyed. There are metal makers/ moho metal makers to take into account, and units to produce energy, or need energy even to move (like the warlord). Not to mention the dynamic energy consumption of firering energy weapons, ect.ect.ect.
The resource system is one of the three main reasons TA was better than other RTS, imho.
-
Warlord Zsinj
- Imperial Winter Developer
- Posts: 3742
- Joined: 24 Aug 2004, 08:59
I'd say your proposal is a bandaid fix which won't necessarily fix your problems.
If strategy and unit combinations have lost their importance, then it means that there are some powerful units that have no drawbacks to their inclusion. If people don't have to think about what they are building, then there are obviously units that are far too powerful for their own good.
Note that power doesn't necessarily have to be money for damage/armour. If a unit can be used without having a clear weakness then it is a brainless option in terms of strategic choice.
But, this only consolidates my belief that XTA's offered balance changes are not for the better, and that OTA is the way to go.
If strategy and unit combinations have lost their importance, then it means that there are some powerful units that have no drawbacks to their inclusion. If people don't have to think about what they are building, then there are obviously units that are far too powerful for their own good.
Note that power doesn't necessarily have to be money for damage/armour. If a unit can be used without having a clear weakness then it is a brainless option in terms of strategic choice.
But, this only consolidates my belief that XTA's offered balance changes are not for the better, and that OTA is the way to go.
In almost RTS games some units are needed to win right?
In XTA, most ''useless'' units have been changed to the better. Many units have been improved. Yes it's true XTA focuses a litte more on level 2 units. Yes it's true that some are a ''litthe'' overpowerd. But let me put it this way. No units are underpowerd!
Thats right, no units is useless in XTA. Level 1 fighers are strong enuff to shoot down planes, Toasters arent just Guardians that can popdown, Krogohs dont cost as much as a full army and with an attack power of › army ect...
I think most pepole dont like XTA cuz it changes the role of units. For example the Jeffy is an excelnt Rading tool, not a cheap scout.
Plus, if something is wrong with XTA, it will change. OTA will stand and stomp at the same spot for all enternity.
Oh, and what made OTA so much more tatical then XTA all of a sudden?
In XTA, most ''useless'' units have been changed to the better. Many units have been improved. Yes it's true XTA focuses a litte more on level 2 units. Yes it's true that some are a ''litthe'' overpowerd. But let me put it this way. No units are underpowerd!
Thats right, no units is useless in XTA. Level 1 fighers are strong enuff to shoot down planes, Toasters arent just Guardians that can popdown, Krogohs dont cost as much as a full army and with an attack power of › army ect...
I think most pepole dont like XTA cuz it changes the role of units. For example the Jeffy is an excelnt Rading tool, not a cheap scout.
If your talking about the goliath and/or bulldog situation, it's not true. An mixed army can do MUCH more damage then an army only consitant with Bulldogs/gollys. Ofen for a much cheaper price to. This apllies speaclty to ARM.If strategy and unit combinations have lost their importance, then it means that there are some powerful units that have no drawbacks to their inclusion. If people don't have to think about what they are building, then there are obviously units that are far too powerful for their own good.
Example?Note that power doesn't necessarily have to be money for damage/armour. If a unit can be used without having a clear weakness then it is a brainless option in terms of strategic choice.
Plus, if something is wrong with XTA, it will change. OTA will stand and stomp at the same spot for all enternity.
Oh, and what made OTA so much more tatical then XTA all of a sudden?
I was sure that the differance between OTA and XTA was the unit hp.
I like XTA, because I like to build artillery, and some other stuff that are not really good in ota.
I like XTA because he will change.
The two things I don't like in XTA are :
Unit have too much hp : I prefere when units die faster. Like that, you have to be cerefull before going somewhere.
I would have preferded laser that shoot shorter...for me, the long range thingy is for guardin/toaster.
I like XTA, because I like to build artillery, and some other stuff that are not really good in ota.
I like XTA because he will change.
The two things I don't like in XTA are :
Unit have too much hp : I prefere when units die faster. Like that, you have to be cerefull before going somewhere.
I would have preferded laser that shoot shorter...for me, the long range thingy is for guardin/toaster.
Dumbing down
I'm not against having to manage your resources - I agree it's a great part of TA. The solution to resources management being so important is not to make resource management entirely trivial, but to make sure that the strategic part of the game is also important. With lvl2 units being so awesome in spring, you don't have to think too much about your strategy most of the time - that's the real issue I guess.
Like I say, that's not necessarily a problem though - it just leads to a different kind of gameplay.
Still, it might be fun to try a fixed resource system - it would make attacking somebody's base very different - I guess you'd be focused on destroying plants and con units instead of resource production.
Interestingly the original UH had a switcher which apart from allowing you to switch the spider pack on/off etc. allowed you to run the game in "limited resources" mode, which replaced all metal spots on the map with a rock (worth 500m I think), and may have disabled metal makers I forget. Makes for a very different kind of game - nice option to have though. I guess it wouldn't work so well in spring since we don't have defined metal spots as such, though I guess it would be possible to make the metal gradually run out!
Cheers
Munch
Like I say, that's not necessarily a problem though - it just leads to a different kind of gameplay.
Still, it might be fun to try a fixed resource system - it would make attacking somebody's base very different - I guess you'd be focused on destroying plants and con units instead of resource production.
Interestingly the original UH had a switcher which apart from allowing you to switch the spider pack on/off etc. allowed you to run the game in "limited resources" mode, which replaced all metal spots on the map with a rock (worth 500m I think), and may have disabled metal makers I forget. Makes for a very different kind of game - nice option to have though. I guess it wouldn't work so well in spring since we don't have defined metal spots as such, though I guess it would be possible to make the metal gradually run out!
Cheers
Munch
OK, you all got me kinda mifed here. Sure level two units are hard, thats the point. But if you got level two units then you can bet your enamy will have them to. So all id fair again.
The only point it becomes unbalanced is when one player is better and makes a few level 2 units befor the other player gets his out and hence kicks the guys ass. However, even then its not realy that unbalanced, due to the comander. D-Gun takes all in one shot, so if they make an early attack with level 2 units there wont be enough to stop a comander. (OK, again, it depends how good the players are...)
Overall XTA is better in my opinion, plus level 1 units arn't as usless as people make out, having a few level 1 units will shift a battel your way if you both have equal level 2 armies. And you can churn them out so fast later in the game they make super cannon fodder.
Finaly, you dont need to look after your resorces anymore than in OTA. Its the same. You build dam generators, and if ur lossing E or M you look for a way to get it back up again. And even if you compleatly screw up to begin with you can come back pretty quickly.
Cant see what all the fuss is about...
aGorm
The only point it becomes unbalanced is when one player is better and makes a few level 2 units befor the other player gets his out and hence kicks the guys ass. However, even then its not realy that unbalanced, due to the comander. D-Gun takes all in one shot, so if they make an early attack with level 2 units there wont be enough to stop a comander. (OK, again, it depends how good the players are...)
Overall XTA is better in my opinion, plus level 1 units arn't as usless as people make out, having a few level 1 units will shift a battel your way if you both have equal level 2 armies. And you can churn them out so fast later in the game they make super cannon fodder.
Finaly, you dont need to look after your resorces anymore than in OTA. Its the same. You build dam generators, and if ur lossing E or M you look for a way to get it back up again. And even if you compleatly screw up to begin with you can come back pretty quickly.
Cant see what all the fuss is about...
aGorm
-
FoeOfTheBee
- Posts: 557
- Joined: 12 May 2005, 18:26
Too be honest, I don't have a problem with resource management in XTA. I'm open minded though, and I think a resource stream would be an interesting way to see if the game gets more fun as resource gathering becomes less important.
I'm profoundly unconvinced that OTA is the best unit balance. It seems highly unlikely that by pure genious Cavedog made a perfectly balanced game. Surely at least a few tweaks exist that could improve gameplay.
I think resource gathering in Spring and TA is probably more important than in other RTS games. The point I made in the article is that it is less annoying than resource gathering in other games. This is subjective though, I can only say that it annoys me less.
I'm profoundly unconvinced that OTA is the best unit balance. It seems highly unlikely that by pure genious Cavedog made a perfectly balanced game. Surely at least a few tweaks exist that could improve gameplay.
I think resource gathering in Spring and TA is probably more important than in other RTS games. The point I made in the article is that it is less annoying than resource gathering in other games. This is subjective though, I can only say that it annoys me less.
-
HellToupee
- Posts: 59
- Joined: 01 May 2005, 01:27
its good early game but what i dont like is late game it just becomes resources only basically, since once u get going u can just pump out fusion after fusion and moho mine after moho mine, it just comes down to how many units u can make, most ppl just seem to build 100 construtor planes and pump out 2 units and just set them to attack until game over. I feel expanionist style eg mines only is more strategic as u have to control territory and hot spots. Pretty much late game resources become unlimited.
my goal in playing OTA is to get past the expantionist part of the game to the Moho Metal Maker> Fusion Plant> Moho Metal Maker> Fusion Plant> Moho Metal Maker> Fusion Plant / 100 adv constructor planes stage as quickly as possible so I can acctually start building the things I want in mass quantity as quickly as I want to use them... in XTA, because levl 1s are so strong and defenses are so sucky, I can't get to that point without people weeny rushing me to death... that's why I like OTA, but keep trying to play XTA, because it's a harder game to play well and the games are nice and quick to get started...
