Windy Comet

[KingRaptor]

Well?

People seem to hate it for fluff reasons, but from a pure gameplay perspective it's said to create more variety. So, how many people actually objected to this?

[zwzsg]

I disapprove, unless you set the texture to something green and grassy.

[Google_Frog]

I'd like to see a gameplay reason for no wind.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

diffrent maps have diffrent values for wind, gravity, typemaps, vegetation and metal for a reason.

[Pxtl]

Replace the wind gens with some other inconsistent source of energy. Hell, replace them with solars (they could even change facing to face the "wind" the way winds do) and come up with something new for the cheap powerplants.

Having wind available on all maps is good gameplay, just bad from a realism perspective.

[SirMaverick]

Replace the wind gens with some other inconsistent source of energy. Hell, replace them with solars (they could even change facing to face the "wind" the way winds do) and come up with something new for the cheap powerplants.

Having wind available on all maps is good gameplay, just bad from a realism perspective.

ACK

[SirMaverick]

I disapprove, unless you set the texture to something green and grassy.

Mars has wind. There are low wind places on earth.

If there is wind or not depends on what the map maker intended.

[CarRepairer]

If there is wind or not depends on what the map maker intended.

Map makers work within a system designed for Total Annihilation, Spring's original purpose. Spring has grown beyond TA and is now a general RTS engine. CA's goal is not to be a mod of TA.

As mentioned, Kernel Panic doesn't use wind values from maps. If I made a map for KP and made it work with KP just like other KP maps, except I added wind to it, should I be offended that KP is not utilizing my wind values?

[Gota]

I think wind on comet sux but why do ca devs care?
You want wind there,whatever.It's your game...
Just don't play comet people.

[SirMaverick]

If there is wind or not depends on what the map maker intended.

Map makers work within a system designed for Total Annihilation, Spring's original purpose. Spring has grown beyond TA and is now a general RTS engine. CA's goal is not to be a mod of TA.

This general RTS engine has a concept of wind. It's used in CA. If the map defines values outside our scope we could limit that (I made a suggestion to do so some time ago).
Atm we do not use the exact map wind values. We just use them to decide weather or not wind generators can be built or not.

As mentioned, Kernel Panic doesn't use wind values from maps.

KP uses this general RTS engine, but not all of its concepts.

If I made a map for KP and made it work with KP just like other KP maps, except I added wind to it, should I be offended that KP is not utilizing my wind values?

Only you can know.

[Saktoth]

ITT a bunch of people who do not play CA are voting on its gameplay.

diffrent maps have diffrent values for wind, gravity, typemaps, vegetation and metal for a reason.

Yes- the reason is that they are not made for CA. No maps are. It is pure hubris to expect they will be. Gravity, especially, since CA uses impulse more than most other mods. Mostly when mappers balance gravity, it is to change the properties of ballistic projectiles (esp making high-traj arty useless).

CA doesnt have to be just another TA mod, the wind doesnt have to be map defined any more than the logistics generation rates in s44 should be defined by the maps wind speed.

We do not use the wind rates built into the game. We use our own, lua'd system. Just because there is a default wind setup doesnt mean we have to use it.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

but since it shares maps with TA, there is no reason to have a diffrent wind system, more impulse etc all that junk is just in there for the sake of being diffrent. you should never replace somthing that works perfectly well with somthing inferior just for the sake of being diffrent, because that seems jolly stupid.

CA had it about right when wind was default, but gave higher values on higher ground. now its just stupid and unintuitive.

gravity likewise changes gameplay on diffrent maps, somthing positive. trying to do away with it seems stupid when there is so many better things to be using dev time on.

[luckywaldo7]

but since it shares maps with TA, there is no reason to have a diffrent wind system, more impulse etc all that junk is just in there for the sake of being diffrent. you should never replace somthing that works perfectly well with somthing inferior just for the sake of being diffrent, because that seems jolly stupid.

o_O

You are one of the last people I would have expected to be telling CA to move back to BA. Units like the newton are awesome, I don't see why they should be removed just because mappers don't accommodate for them.

CA had it about right when wind was default, but gave higher values on higher ground. now its just stupid and unintuitive.

Are you kidding me? One of my first games ever was BA on DSD, I built winds and then had no idea why people were yelling at me. Having to press "i" at the start of every match to find out if you are going to build winds or solars is "just stupid and unintuitive."

gravity likewise changes gameplay on diffrent maps, somthing positive. trying to do away with it seems stupid when there is so many better things to be using dev time on.

I have a friend I used to play halo with a lot. He would never play against me though, unless it was on one of his custom maps which would invariably have some secret sniper spot or a cache of weapons and powerups. He almost always beat me simply because he knew all the secrets of the map and I didn't.

Thats basically what is going on here. Experienced players will know how to play the gravity, they will know the typemap, it will give them a huge advantage over players who don't.

I mean, if mappers really want, they can give their perfectly good maps special values to bash noobs with, but the rest of us shouldn't be forced to play with these whack values when the map itself is excellent.

[pintle]

Map dependant wind is cool. The combination of available space, variable wind values, ease of defence/raiding, and available metal (desirability of solars) make the growth/harassment of an early/mid game economy much richer and more dynamic in B S and XT-A than the vast majority of contemporary RTS.

I appreciate, with overdrive, CA is aimed at heavily weighing player attention on unit micro, with eco macro taking a definite back seat, but I worry its getting simplified to the point where meaningful player choices are: should i maek fus yet, or do i want immediate returns? and pretty much nothing else.

[Licho]

Map dependendent wind actually leads to less choice.

In CA, you can build both wind and solars on all maps, they both make some sense and have some advantages.

Its strategic decision.

In BA some maps are "wind" and some "solar".. for example building wind on DSD is pointless, building solar on xanthe terra is worthless etc.

So there is actually less in-game choice.

Disabling wind on comet maps means there is less choice, its only purpose is realism.

[Gota]

People are just used to it from BA.
I really don't see how mappers can get offended by this move CA made since they also Force certain things on modders like typemaps.
Personally i don't like typemaps but Some mappers do like them and use them all the time.
Beherith made his FFA map;I think it was called Kolgomov.
I remember asking him If i could use his Map and make a modified version without a typemap.
He did not agree.
Is that not forcing typemaps onto players?
I think Using a map's typemap should be a map option.
Using a map's native wind can also be a mod option for CA for those that want to play a map exactly as it was made by the mappers even if mentioned mappers were thinking of one mod in particular when making their maps.

[Pxtl]

When typemap and gravity control become available, I'd like to see it all socked away in a single "use map settings" modoption. "On" means use them (incl. wind settings, but keeping elevation-boost). "Off" means CA overrides them all to sane levels.

[pintle]

Map dependendent wind actually leads to less choice.

In CA, you can build both wind and solars on all maps, they both make some sense and have some advantages.

Its strategic decision.

In BA some maps are "wind" and some "solar".. for example building wind on DSD is pointless, building solar on xanthe terra is worthless etc.

So there is actually less in-game choice.

Disabling wind on comet maps means there is less choice, its only purpose is realism.

Map dependant wind means less standard eco builds ("choice"), more dynamic reaction to your environment, potentially much greater risk/reward (read: minimum wind value).

It is only in the extremes when a player will not build one type of energy resource. In XTA the build time and E cost of winds mean that they are not optimal opening energy sources on almost any map, with a lot of people starting with a few solars and switching as their preference dictates: People very rarely only build X e producer.

Map dependant wind means less of a same-as-every-other-game economic build order (mex map dependant), and means you have to actually think and plan, and storage becomes much more important.

I would take that over "choice" any day :)

[Licho]

Build order is not a choice..
its map specific ruitine..

It adds nothing to the game. Just some minor map specific variety.

You have map specific variety in CA too, thanx to altitude dependent wind power. But any map specific build orders are bad for gameplay.

You need choices, you need tradeoffs. Map specific build orders are neither.

[JohannesH]

Build order is not a choice..
its map specific ruitine..

What the hell, if your build order is not a choice what is then??