Art, Derivation, Legal Mumbling

[MR.D]

I've been working on a few things, but the drive I had to do them is kinda gone.

It was my hopes that by starting up some work to clear the Spring OTA content a bit, it would inspire some other people to pitch in and help to make some units as well, but nobody took it up except a few guys.

That and my units are only made for a OTA based game, and they don't really have much use in other mods that want to push away from that unit style, and BA (the only popular OTA mod) won't use them or any of the other high quality content that CA and XTA use for whatever reason, so its kinda pointless to continue.

There are over 250 units to do, and I have no plans on doing them all myself

[MidKnight]

We're (me, saktoth, hoi, faceless, overkill, others) here to help! My modeling/texturing skills are as of yet extremely nooby, but I guess I'll improve over time.A texturing tutorial would be nice *wink* *wink* You've done a lot of amazing work already, more than probably any other TA remake modeler, and are a role model for us less experienced modelers. If replacement models are found for every TA unit, someone eventually WILL compile them in a mod with BA balance, even if it isn't Noize himself. What you're doing is great for Spring because when the project gets completed, the backbone of the Spring playerbase will be free to be advertised, and Spring's popularity will jump exponentially (obviously, you already know this ). Please, keep going!

[Pressure Line]

To be clear MidK, a 'remake' of a unit doesnt really clear up the IP issue all that much. Dont get me wrong, because MrD's work is great, but for the most part the models are carbon-copies of the originals, spruced up to bring them out of the 90's, they do NOT let you turn around and say "hey look, we are TA IP free now!"

The work done for CA isn't simply redoing the models in s3o (or it shouldnt be) it's about reconceptualising the units to fit their CA roles and weapons (and the CA artistic direction). There is a major difference.

[MidKnight]

True.
Mr. D is in a tougher situation than most of us, having to work within such tight guidelines to make pretty units. However, in my opinion, his models are not carbon copies of the originals. Yes, the are some of the same spirit, but many look completely different. For example, the radar veh, or the instigator. In fact, I think that with a simple rename, many of these units would be completely free of likeness to OTA. Sure, it's a tank in the style of TA's Core, but it isn't a ravager clone.

[Pressure Line]

Aye, but there are many that are literally a copy or only have minor changes (Goliath, Reaper, Weasel, Leveler to name a few.) they are nice. VERY nice, but they do NOT represent a move away from TA IP. They aren't ripped from TA directly, but they may as well be in legal terms.

[[Krogoth86]]

Well of course they may look a bit different - you wouldn't want to have them have OTA 3do level of detail would you? Plus he also used the rendered units (if there were any) as a guide which at the same time weren't THAT good in terms of details (lots of procedural textures & stuff)...

So in the end a "real" copy of the original units is something nobody would like to have...

[Pxtl]

Aye, but there are many that are literally a copy or only have minor changes (Goliath, Reaper, Weasel, Leveler to name a few.) they are nice. VERY nice, but they do NOT represent a move away from TA IP. They aren't ripped from TA directly, but they may as well be in legal terms.

Didn't he do remakes of some 3rd-party units, like the Garpike? CA could swap out the TA-derived units for the 3rd-party versions in places. CA doesn't use the Garpike at all does it? There's a perfect way to replace a unit with a non-TA-IP version.

[AF]

http://www.darkstars.co.uk/downloads/in ... ring/units

Encase one wishes to upload models. If there's lots fo little files and not one big zip then tell me and Ill move them all into a subfolder like I did with cremuss' models

[Pressure Line]

Y'all are missing the point (perhaps intentionally? I dunno.)

If the CA team wanted they could replace all the TA models with a bunch of 100 poly placeholder units with 5 minute textures and be free of TA IP forever.

A mod thats trying to be "TA for the Spring Engine" is *not* going to do that. A team (or individual) doing that wants (and the players expect) models and textures that are either a) ripped from TA or b) spruced-up rebuilds of the original models. If a mod isn't using TA models and/or models that are direct replacements then its not TA (and also not infringing on the TA IP)

ofc, models like the tremor, garpike and wolverine aren't TA IP, but it doesn't really make a difference. when the Linux distro's look at a mod/game's content they arent gonna say "Lets forget about all those IP infringing models, because theres a dozen fully open source models included, so its ok." It doesn't work like that. It never has worked like that. It never will work like that.

tldr: TA content is stolen and illegal to use and distribute, MrD's models (except the ones NOT based on Cavedog units) DO NOT CHANGE THIS. You can go and advertise Spring now, theres at least a dozen released Spring games that are fine for you to advertise without worrying about copyright content.

[Neuralize]

I didn't dig up this thread to have a gpl jerkoff, I just want the models updated in the first post..

[Pressure Line]

x: yeah, sorry for the off-topic posts. but it is vital that people understand that simply rehashing the models doesn't free anyone from TA IP. It loosens the grip somewhat, but doesn't set you free.

Wish i could help on sourcing the models :/ wasnt each one linked at the end of each model thread? or are those links dead?

[Neuralize]

Yeah, they're dead.

[clericvash]

Ask AF he is always boasting about his hosting.

[AF]

Thats because my hosting is uberfantasmical

[manolo_]

i hope mr. d will continue in modelling for spring someday

[YokoZar]

If a mod isn't using TA models and/or models that are direct replacements then its not TA (and also not infringing on the TA IP)

No it's not. Recreations of concepts are legal - you can copy, but not copyright infringe. The analogy here would be wargame miniatures: there are many companies that make generic versions of popular wargame units. Many are no doubt inspired to fill similar functions, often having the same weapons and fantastic makeup (eg, a lizardman with a scythe riding on a raptor). Essentially, a modeler can be inspired by the role of the unit as much as he likes, however he can't directly modify that unit but must instead make his own independent creative work.

One IP aspect that we should be careful of, however, is trademark infringement. As long as we're clear that we're not Total Annihilation in any way we shouldn't need to worry about that, though.

[Pressure Line]

Recreation of a concept is different to recreation of a thing. Yes, in the DnD/fantasy worlds stuff like orcs, reanimated skeletons and elves are common as mud. If I make a set of models based on those elements no-one can say "omg you're just ripping off WC3!" Possibly I have been inspired by it, or maybe I'm just an old DnD player wanting to see my adventures in 3d, who knows? (except me ofc)

If I copy Fanger's URC spider designs, just up the polycount and apply uvmapped textures, would anyone blame him if he went ballistic? I think not. Would it make it any less wrong if Fang never found out about it? No. Thats the situation the TA content is in, we've got it, we're using it, but no-one in a position to say anything has done anything about it.

If your goal is to be TA IP free, you need to reconceptualize* the units. You can remake** and remake the TA units until the sun burns out, but in the end you are still in the same position; you're using someone else's stuff without permission, and they can turn around at any time and say "Stop that immediately or we'll see you in court."

* ie provide a unit that can do the same thing without being the same thing.

** by remake I mean like the Weasel and Goliath remodels, they are just (much spiffier) polygon for polygon copies of the originals.

[KingRaptor]

Most Mr. D OTA replacement models don't look particularly similar to the original OTA models. The problem is that many (all?) of them are directly copied from Cavedog's concept art (and he admitted as much, complete with pictures in his threads), which I believe makes them derivative works.

Nevertheless, basing it off a picture should be a lot cleaner legally than basing it off an existing model, so...yeah.

[Gota]

What....
You telling me it's illegal to make a new model...and new textures as long as they look similar to something that already exists???Oo
That's rubbish.
There is no way to approach this in a court of law.

[Peet]