Torture

[PicassoCT]

Intersting Article over Torture and why it is today not taken to court, making Europe and America in aspects as lawless as any thirdworldcountry:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n09/peir01_.html


Best Brick in the Wall of Text:

"The language used is itself a critical contributing factor. After the Second World War the US was the first nation to transform traditional terminology, moving from ÔÇÿdefenceÔÇÖ to ÔÇÿnational securityÔÇÖ as the guiding ethos of its foreign policy, a conscious choice of words intended to reflect the expansion of the USÔÇÖs desired role in world affairs, conflating a myriad different political, economic and military factors so that developments halfway round the world could automatically be construed as having a direct impact on the USÔÇÖs core interests. Effectively, every development the world over came to be perceived as potentially crucial, so that an adverse turn of events anywhere endangered the United States. American foreign policy goals came to be translated into issues of national survival, and the range of threats became limitless."

Anybody anything to contribute, besides SAW it coming and the 24 Bauer delivery service kept bringing it in ? Oh, surely you will poast the whole goregallery? Zipocat anyone? No Torture does not include work, taxpaying and walking the Hall of Flame..
Sighreously.. anybody, anything?

[smoth]

Not really a fair comparison, I think it is laughable to ever compare the us to a third world country and trying to do so just really shows an ignorance of how well they have it in their country. believe me, I would never compair the us or most(not all) of Europe to a third world country.

[Gota]

I think torture is useful if the torture is done to someone else and for my benefit,otherwise its horrible.
I am sure that is how torture is justified in any country practicing it and i understand the logic of it and cant really say anything against it.

It would be great if torture was not used around the world but we are still very far from that point.

If u could torture 1 person to save another would u do it?what if ud save 100?
and so the scale stretches in many different ways and each case needs to be studied separately.

[PicassoCT]

Not really a fair comparison, I think it is laughable to ever compare the us to a third world country and trying to do so just really shows an ignorance of how well they have it in their country. believe me, I would never compair the us or most(not all) of Europe to a third world country.

Missunderstanding, i didn┬┤t ment the country as whole, just the Goverment& Justicesystem.. sorry Smooth, for not pointing that out clearly..

@ Gota: So Torture is okay, as long as you, or the whole society reaps profit of it? so if i say, the usickIndustry is a important part of society and pirates are not (they don┬┤t do business, therefore they don┬┤t feed people) it is quite okay to torture pirates till they confess and deliver more pirates to the torture chambers?

[Gota]

Not really a fair comparison, I think it is laughable to ever compare the us to a third world country and trying to do so just really shows an ignorance of how well they have it in their country. believe me, I would never compair the us or most(not all) of Europe to a third world country.

Missunderstanding, i didn┬┤t ment the country as whole, just the Goverment& Justicesystem.. sorry Smooth, for not pointing that out clearly..

@ Gota: So Torture is okay, as long as you, or the whole society reaps profit of it? so if i say, the usickIndustry is a important part of society and pirates are not (they don┬┤t do business, therefore they don┬┤t feed people) it is quite okay to torture pirates till they confess and deliver more pirates to the torture chambers?

I'm just trying to say it like it is without sugarcoating it.

[zwzsg]

After the Second World War the US was the first nation to transform traditional terminology, moving from ÔÇÿdefenceÔÇÖ to ÔÇÿnational securityÔÇÖ as the guiding ethos

Before 'defence', back when things were still wearing their name, it was 'war department'.

[smoth]

I am by no means saying that torture is not cruel, then again most people do not care because they see themselves far removed from the group that said torture could be inflicted upon.

It is a huge amount of cruelty and the article does mention several facts but then again there were supposedly muslim who complained about being frustrated by female soldiers... sorry but "oh no please don't put those titties in my face" is much nicer than "OH GOD THAT WAS MY DICK! I NEED THAT WHY DID YOU CUT IT OFF"

Not that I am condoning or against torture, simply put in survival I see it as us vs them. Not that i want to be on the other side of that but frankly yeah I can honestly say I don't care about some dude living in a cave. Not trying to be heartless but I think most people would not care about someone they have no exposure to. Add to that the fact that all exposure is negative and you get a people who see the other people with an air of contempt. Funny how both sides are that way. before all this stupid bullshit, none of us really cared about those crazy araaabs but now we are deeply concerned over the hostile anti-american sentiments of a bunch of dudes who are trying to eek by a living in some shit hole mud hut on the otherside of the world?

I really don't see why we care now. Maybe the better reaction should have been just rebuild the wtc. Oh well hind sight is 20/20, I sincerely doubt that osama quite got the reaction he wanted. Having known a few religious zealots he probably just thought it was going to go down America would shit it's self and he would be a hero... who care now they hate us more, irresponsible media helps that and frankly I am tired of it all and want to see Iran, china, Israel and Afghanistan blow each other up just get it over with, it is hot and nuclear winter might be nice.

[zwzsg]

Not really a fair comparison, I think it is laughable to ever compare the us to a third world country and trying to do so just really shows an ignorance of how well they have it in their country. believe me, I would never compair the us or most(not all) of Europe to a third world country.

British intelligence and the Americans and Moroccans, who for 18 months slashed the most intimate parts of his body with razors, burned him with boiling liquids, stretched his limbs causing unimaginable agony

What kind of harsher treatment is required to fall to third world country level?

[smoth]

how do we even know he is speaking the truth?

and to fall to a third world country? Oh I don't know having guards armed with ak47s every mile or so would be an issue.

[zwzsg]

I have khaki clad guards armed in FAMAS patrolling stations here in my european country, does that count?

[smoth]

lol crazy, we have nothing like that in the states.


My issue with the article is that the present does not mention that any of this has been stopped or if even people responsible were held to any accountability. I read about halfway through his little tirade and realized that it was biased. Then skipped to the bottom and read the source. maybe someone somewhere went out of line. We have no idea on whether or not those people are still there doing the same thing. I am sorry but go to Guatemala and tell me that France is as bad. I think you will have your eyes opened. shit hearing the things i have heard from Indians and Turks makes me terrified of their countries.

[Gota]

well finding where the truth lies is very very hard.
Mostly truth doesn't matter and what is truth?different minds perceive things in different ways.
Its more about advertisement and rhetoric...
Shoving your world view to someone else and making him believe in it this is how the world has always worked and is working now.
Same with laws and obedience.
If you can break the law but make sure nobody punishes you does the law matter?
I think the disoray in the western world is caused by the fact that other cultures suddenly have the power of advertisement and rhetoric and history,that was one agreed on in the west,since the west was #1 and all else were lower,is now not as set in stone.

different cultures suddenly have the power to shove their world view in the mix after the long western hegemony(not judging anyone) and everyone is confused.
This will eventually settle down but there will be a lot of shaking.

[zwzsg]

Not really. There's not such things as other cultures gaining power. Every non-USA culture is still dwindling, fast and faster. Simply, fueling hatred toward the others just remains the most efficient way for leaders to rise to power, here and abroad, before and now.

[smoth]

I thought Europe was on the rise, with the whole euro union thing, I thought Europe was getting it together and going to stomp the ass?

[Sleksa]

lol crazy, we have nothing like that in the states.

uh huh

I read about halfway through his little tirade and realized that it was biased.

Yeah i agree, we cant know for sure that the israelis, the us, and their 3'rd world allies are torturing people

or even if they did, it was all a act of a few individual soldiers right?

[smoth]

we cannot pretend that the us and it's allies are the only ones employing it. All of this "oh we are such bad people for it" is so fucking dumb. Like I said, I do not care for torture but frankly I suspect having one's head cut off or genitals removed is pretty goddamn worse.

feel free to attack me like I am some how saying it is justified, your fault for wanting me to be that person.

I am saying that saying the us/europe is as bad as a third world country is several levels of severity worse.

I never counted Israel in my discussion as I have a strong hatred for Israel.

want to try and flame me or start a political flame war get your shit together better than that sleksa.

[tombom]

we cannot pretend that the us and it's allies are the only ones employing it. All of this "oh we are such bad people for it" is so fucking dumb. Like I said, I do not care for torture but frankly I suspect having one's head cut off or genitals removed is pretty goddamn worse.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. To go "well, we're not as bad as X country" is a horrible way of thinking. A "civilised" country should go the extra mile to make sure it treats humans with some level of decency. In terms of "WERE FIGHTIN A WAR", torture is rarely effective and makes more enemies.

[smoth]

you guys are dense.


I am not saying that torture is acceptable.

I am saying that I am not reading about detainees having their dicks cut off. I am saying that in a third world country there will be little left of you to cry about being water boarded.

[Sleksa]

I am saying that in a third world country there will be little left of you to cry about being water boarded.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. To go "well, we're not as bad as X country" is a horrible way of thinking.

we cannot pretend that the us and it's allies are the only ones employing it.

True, however you should atleast have some moral highground if you want to keep advertising yourself as the democratic land of the free

I am saying that saying the us/europe is as bad as a third world country is several levels of severity worse.

not on every accounts, altho torture and holding prisoners indefinately without charging them isnt exactly a sign of a proper justice system either.

I never counted Israel in my discussion as I have a strong hatred for Israel.

Freudian slip, sorry~~

want to try and flame me or start a political flame war get your shit together better than that sleksa.

soz

[zwzsg]

we cannot pretend that the us and it's allies are the only ones employing it

No one, ever pretended that US are the only country torturing people.

What has been pretended, however, is that the US do torture people, so cannot anymore claim to be the good guys vs the evil guys.

I suspect having one's head cut off

The whole point of torture is to be worse than death. In a classicaly tortured-tortured relation, the tortured people wish only to die as fast as possible, while the skill of the torturer lies in making sure the torturee doesn't die despite the excruciating things he goes through.

or genitals removed is pretty goddamn worse

who for 18 months slashed the most intimate parts of his body with razors

One single clean cut to remove the genitals is much less painful that a year and a half of razors slash to your balls. Again, you're forgetting that torture is about prolonging the intense pain and suffering, not about getting it done quick.

I am saying that saying the us/europe is as bad as a third world country is several levels of severity worse.

However third world country have no invaded the US to free them from the oppressive dynasty of Bushes.