research & unit in-game designing

berzehk · Post by **berzehk** » 08 Aug 2005, 11:02

hi !
i discovered TA: S a month ago and i'd like to help developping it, moreover on that feature i'd like to implement, which is the research system and unit ingame designing like it existed in Warzone 2100 and ...hmm..earth 2150 or stg like this.

in a few words...
research : we could create 'labs' buildings which have research menus which would allow to create a new kind of weapon - or new kind of unit structure, new kind of engines, make unit production faster, new kind of radar systems, new size of factories for specific unit-size production, etc.
in-game design: as soon as we discovered (in labs) a unit structure, an engine, a weapon type, we could have a windows where we select that structure, which offers different weapons slots (maybe even with different sizes), different system slots (to improve aiming, defense...) and an engine slot and the player would be able to choose what to put in these slots. after what he names the unit or choose an icon, which appears in the building menu of the factories able to produce that size of units.

i'd first like to know if it is still possible at this point...

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 08 Aug 2005, 12:35

if you plan on doing this know it will NEVER be included in xta (basic vsn of spring)
seriously noone really wants this feature unless for a mod. the great thing about TA is the epic armies crashing with each unit having a counter which will beat it under the right conditions. upgrades fuck balance right up imo. but a earth 2150 mod for spring i admit would be very cool (i like the way research is implemented :))
I doubt this is possible though becasue the SYs have shown little/no interest in this idea (there have been a few threads discussing this topic)

Post by **jcnossen** » 08 Aug 2005, 13:09

i'd first like to know if it is still possible at this point...

It would be very complicated at this moment, as you can not use different models in the same unit right now. Waiting for a new unit format will save you a lot of work.

upgrades fuck balance right up imo

Upgrades can be balanced too, it's just how you set them up. Futhermore, changing your production to level-2 units is essentially the same as upgrading, only you have to build some extra factories with it.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 08 Aug 2005, 13:43

changing factories to level 2 is nothing like upgrading. period.

berzehk · Post by **berzehk** » 08 Aug 2005, 14:30

i wasn't thinking of it for XTA, but truly for another mod.

Waiting for a new unit format will save you a lot of work

well, that could be the first step of my implementation ^^

IMSabbel · Post by **IMSabbel** » 08 Aug 2005, 15:28

Btw, dont mention upgrading here. It will remind people of their small-dick complex because of the commercially more successful starcraft and create a "kill the heretic" mentality.

zwzsg · Post by **zwzsg** » 08 Aug 2005, 15:32

Zaphod wrote:It would be very complicated at this moment, as you can not use different models in the same unit right now. Waiting for a new unit format will save you a lot of work.

hide bonus_piece;
if(whatever_condition)
{show bonus_piece;}

You can't change model, but you can put two models inside one and hide all the pieces of one, and show all the pieces of the other, then switch ingame.

Eh, right now I could script some crude upgrading system in TA (which hopefully would also work in Spring too). Should I to assert my point?

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 09 Aug 2005, 04:09

Min3mat wrote:changing factories to level 2 is nothing like upgrading. period.

Changing a factory to level 2 is precisely like upgrading, because it is upgrading. You expend metal and energy to build a level 2 factory and upgrade your manufacturing capacity.

Do you think a level 2 factory downgrades your production ability?

Warlord Zsinj · Post by **Warlord Zsinj** » 09 Aug 2005, 08:18

I hate upgrades with a passion; in all forms they take, they always serve to ruin a perfectly good game.

However, if you want to put it in a mod, I'm not going to stop you.

Just keep it out of default OTA and XTA.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 09 Aug 2005, 11:38

changing to level 2 is NOT upgrading!!! because the units are STILL STOCK UNITS and are used IN CONJUNCTION with level 1 units. also if they were UPGRADED then they would be more RESISTANT to their counters and EACH LEVEL 2 UNIT has its WEAKNESS they are made for specific conditions!

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 09 Aug 2005, 11:54

Min3mat wrote:changing to level 2 is NOT upgrading!!! because the units are STILL STOCK UNITS and are used IN CONJUNCTION with level 1 units. also if they were UPGRADED then they would be more RESISTANT to their counters and EACH LEVEL 2 UNIT has its WEAKNESS they are made for specific conditions!

Fee OfBee don't speak about unit, but factory. And for factories, he he not really wrong.
The only thing it change is that you have 2 factories and the end instead of one.

SecurE · Post by **SecurE** » 09 Aug 2005, 13:33

But then you are only expanding/increasing your production capabilities, it isn't as such the same thing as an upgrade. Especially with XTA you can't talk about upgrading when building a lvl2 plant.

Torrasque · Post by **Torrasque** » 09 Aug 2005, 13:48

SecurE wrote:But then you are only expanding/increasing your production capabilities, it isn't as such the same thing as an upgrade. Especially with XTA you can't talk about upgrading when building a lvl2 plant.

Hum, right point here...I don't know what to think now :)
Hum, that's why I love TA ^^.

smartie · Post by **smartie** » 09 Aug 2005, 13:55

The closest thing to upgrading in spring right now is the targeting facility. It is a building that improves the accuracy of all your units when firing at radar targets. If you look at a stationary target on your radar you can see the blip waver around the general area of the target. When you get the targeting facility the blips will be dead on.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 09 Aug 2005, 17:23

yeah i suppose that could be considered a upgrade...but it costs energy per tick => imo its not a upgrade (IMO)

CrowJuice · Post by **CrowJuice** » 09 Aug 2005, 20:09

Min3mat wrote:yeah i suppose that could be considered a upgrade...but it costs energy per tick => imo its not a upgrade (IMO)

Upgrades come in all form of shapes and sizes my friend

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » 10 Aug 2005, 06:31

Its more of a compromise than an upgrade. Better targetting at the cost of a CONSTANT energy drain. Just like the Moho mines/makers. They collect more metal, but cost more energy to run and cost more of everyhintg to build.

FoeOfTheBee · Post by **FoeOfTheBee** » 11 Aug 2005, 06:50

SecurE wrote:But then you are only expanding/increasing your production capabilities, it isn't as such the same thing as an upgrade. Especially with XTA you can't talk about upgrading when building a lvl2 plant.

I think SecureE has expressed more clearly what M3M was ranting about. When SecureE says upgrade, I think he means a quantitative improvement in the charateristics of a unit for a single, fixed cost. The only example in Spring is the targetting facility. It's cost is the same whether it improves 10 units or 1000 units. In this sense it is like the armor upgrades in Age of Empires or Warcraft 3.

I'm not a big fan of this kind of upgrade, even though it is very common in the RTS world.

Now, the kind of upgrade and research design berzehk is proposing is very different. Currently in TA you can definately upgrade units. That is what the level 2 factories do. They don't however, upgrade all units for a single fixed cost, like AofE armor upgrades. They produce upgraded units from the new factory, for an increased metal and enregy cost.

There is no question that a level two fatory us an upgrade in comparison to a level 1 factory. You can tell because you prefer to use level 2 units. If it were not an upgrade, you would not have any preference for level 2 units over investing the same metal and energy in level 1 units.

Now, berzehk has proposed an idea that is a significant change from the current system, but not the way M3M thinks. Berzehk's idea would do the same think as the current system, but gradually. Now you buy all production upgrades for a particular class of units at once when you construct the level 2 factory. Under berzehk's system, you would buy these production upgrades gradually.

For instance, instead of building a level 2 kbot factory and having access to all the kbots, you would research a level 2 kbot chassis, then a lightning weapon, and you would have a zeus-style kbot. Then an improved engine and more powerful plasma weapons, and you have a warrior-style kbot.

Basically, you would be constructing a level 2 factory bit-by-bit, with flexibility in unit characteristics.

This could be very interesting, without changing the fundamental nature of the game, since this upgrade system is the same as te current one, but gradual. Or maybe it would just be tedious, but we should understand the proposal for what it is.

berzehk · Post by **berzehk** » 11 Aug 2005, 16:19

ah ! someone got the point =)

that's exactly what i meant.
but we _COULD_ add upgrades, like plasma weapon lvl 'X' or "double plasma weapon".
BUT theses are different weapons. it's not because you researched "double plasma weapon" that all units already created will be magically be updated. moreover the player will have to modify the unit design to include the new weapons.like warzone!

GrOuNd_ZeRo · Post by **GrOuNd_ZeRo** » 11 Aug 2005, 16:45

With the current TA model system it would not work very well...like Zw stated.

Spring RTS Engine

research & unit in-game designing

research & unit in-game designing