Is there demand for a reprogrammable AI

[AF]

As said in the title, is an AI that can be reprogrammed for every and any game wanted? Or are you all happy to write your own AIs from scratch that only work with your own project?

[imbaczek]

you'll need to explain how a reprogrammable AI will be different than a normal Lua AI or Skirmish AI. these can be classified as "reprogrammable", too, only a bit harder when you have to compile c++ instead of just writing lua.

[AF]

As in the AI itself can be reprogrammed via lua or configuration files. Basically an AI which can be told how to play any spring game, or have additional per game behaviours and logic scripted in lua added to it.

This is versus AIs such as the kernal panic or TA AIs where they only work with TA or kernel panic and would require modification into a new form to be able to play anything else, and that new form would then need modifying if it were to be put back to the original content. So there would be a disconnect between hwo to play the game, and playing the game itself.

The nearest there is would be NTai and its configuration files.

[imbaczek]

yeah but why should i choose to program a programmable ai when i can just program a spring skirmish ai? the answer to this question is the answer to your topic question IMHO.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

stop trying to make excuses for yourself and just go get NTAI working again

[KDR_11k]

Of course there's demand for one, just make sure it actually works rather than having broken versions released all the time.

[Tobi]

I'm making one.

[1v0ry_k1ng]

call it S.T.E.V.E

[AF]

This isn't about NTai

And it would take an order of magnitude more effort to program an AI from scratch than to reprogram an existing AI, the intention being that the most basic of reprogrammings would be basic wrappers around communications with lua gadgets or even something generated by a GUI tool, the user may not do any of the programming themselves.

Whereas writing an AI from scratch takes a lot more work and thought.

For example, game xyz adds a new critical feature to the commander which dominates the game mechanic. Do you?

• A: Write an entire new AI from scratch
• B: Figure out how an existing AI works and fork the project
• C: Write a handful of lines of lua for a reprogrammable AI

However it appears you have derailed my thread!?

See my question was not 'what' is a reprogrammable AI, my question was, is there any demand for one!!!!!!!!!

[imbaczek]

i want one!

but i have no idea how easy that reprogramming would be compared to normal ai programming, hence my doubts.

[Pressure Line]

yeah but why should i choose to program a programmable ai when i can just program a spring skirmish ai? the answer to this question is the answer to your topic question IMHO.

what i think AF is talking about is having an AI built around a core module (that handles things like building, attacking, scouting, patrolling. iow the things that are basic to a spring game.) and having the option to incorporate optional modules (for things like special abilities, and resource gathering)

to further illustrate, we have games x, y and z.

x is a TA rebalance mod, but a some units have Lua coded jumpjets. x would need the core module, a 'TA resources' module and a 'jumpjets' module. (arguably this could be handled by any of the existing AI's except it wouldn't use the jumpjets)

y is S44. Its has a mex [flag] spawner that runs at game start, and the flags are captured by having certain units in close proximity to the flags. it also has units that morph [deploy] to become more powerful, but cannot move and have a limited fire arc when deployed. it also has a lua based system for unit ammunition. y needs a 'flag capture' module, a 'deploying units' module and an 'ammunition' module in addition to the core module.

z is Gundam. It has a completely Lua based resource system. z needs a 'Gundam resources' module as well as the core module.

the reason (im not a mind reader btw, so i could be WAYYY off) AF is suggesting a system like this is so that the wheel doesn't have to get re-invented every time someone makes a game that doesn't just use metal, energy and units with guns. It means that if i am making a game that is different from TA in a particular, significant way (special abilities, resources etc) i don't have to write a whole new AI for it, i can just tell the AI to load up additional modules a and b. If module b doesn't exist, I can write that, instead of having to write an entire new AI.

god I hope that this is what you are talking about AF ...

If it is, the answer is 'YESPLZ!"

[Kloot]

i want one!

but i have no idea how easy that reprogramming would be compared to normal ai programming, hence my doubts.

Doesn't your KP AI have a Python binding layer?

See my question was not 'what' is a reprogrammable AI, my question was, is there any demand for one!!!!!!!!!

And what if there is, are you going to make it?????????

[Forboding Angel]

I'm with PL here, YESPLZ!

[imbaczek]

i want one!

but i have no idea how easy that reprogramming would be compared to normal ai programming, hence my doubts.

Doesn't your KP AI have a Python binding layer?

It does, I just don't use it yet

[AF]

Indeed PL your very close. The other side of this is that you don't end up with 10 games with 10 developers all working on not improving their AI, but porting my work into their forks of the core project, which is what would be happening if we all just modified an existing AI.

There's also a lot of other implications but I shall not go into those.

So PL imbaczek Forb, anymore takers?

[1v0ry_k1ng]

me, ill be writin configs

[AF]

Be aware that the configuration format in NTai is at least likely to become lua based, and the toolkit program would be reading and exporting xml likely read in and out by said lua as a compatibility layer. I cba with tdf anymore, it's too restrictive and inflexible compared to the xml libraries out there (and it draws in boost::spirit as a dependency).

But nonetheless, I didn't start this thread with NTai in mind. If there are requests for NTai go to http://redmine.darkstars.co.uk/projects/show/ntai and file a ticket/issue report in the NTai project and Ill add it to the respective milestone so it doesn't get lost.

[zwzsg]

stop trying to make excuses for yourself and just go get NTAI working again

QFT

Or are you all happy to write your own AIs from scratch that only work with your own project?

I would be happier to have someone else writing an AI (either from scratch or adapted from another AI) specifically taylored for my own project.

But so far it seems C++ AI coders mostly care about making generic AI for TA-like mods. AAI has config file, but reading into an AAI config file shows it's still made for TA mods in mind, and my attempt in making config file for AAI just resulted in crashes. NTai was the only configurable AI but its developper broke it, then stopped releasing it, and blamed Spring devs, NTai users, or everybody else but him for that.

Doesn't your KP AI have a Python binding layer?

What and whose is this KP AI you're talking about?

If there are requests for NTai go to http://redmine.darkstars.co.uk/projects/show/ntai and file a ticket/issue report in the NTai project and Ill add it to the respective milestone so it doesn't get lost.

I somehow don't believe that if I registered to that thing and "submited at ticket" about "I have an issue with NTai which is that I can't find any build of NTai" it would yield more success than telling the same thing on this board.




Back to the subject, I'm doubtful about the possiblity of making an AI that is both easier to configure than writing a Lua AI, yet as flexible. Nonetheless, there is still room for something like NTai, that can be configured a bit to play certain mod, yet requires none or little actual programming.

[azaremoth]

As said in the title, is an AI that can be reprogrammed for every and any game wanted?

D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y - yes!!!

[AF]

Zwzsg, Tickets in the bug tracker have the advantage in that once theyre made they're set in stone so you cant change your story or slowly change it over time, and I don't have to dig through hundreds of pages of forum threads.

You reported errors which were inconsistent. I did indeed make changes which vastly improved performance on my own machine only to see you report no change.

Despite you abandoning hopes of using NTai you still continue to push the point despite no obvious need save for personal vengeance. This is trolling, you gain nothing from attacking me save personal satisfaction.

What saddens me is you have extended this to all non lua AIs. You did notice that non lua AIs didnt support TA based mods because of narrow minded but because it was the only type of mod the API allowed? Don't blame AI devs for not supporting games that they cannot support. Now we have a new interface to get to grips with, most of the mature AIs are not actively developed, and most AI devs are still building the foundations of their AIs nevermind supporting kernel panic.

So lay off. Stop attacking me and all non lua AIs. Your hurting AI dev in this community and your trolling, so put up or shutup.

And once again, this thread is not about NTai.