Permanent LOS support in lobby? (and in the engine?)

[TradeMark]

"original" offtopic here: http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 0&p=332524

My conclusion:

Make the engine so it will not test if unit is under LOS, IT EVEN MAKES SPRING FASTER, IIRC one most time consuming thing is to test whether or not unit is under LOS, when we (make ability to) remove it, we can add this awesome feature, PLUS make spring faster.

Theres no fucking need to complain and make things complicated with LUA crap, since it can be done simple and efficient and everyone would be happy, no need to edit mods, just switch it on or off from lobby, what could be easier than that.

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AF wrote:
Adding permanent LOS in the lobby as an option would be useful for debugging, content development, and teaching noobs

Peet wrote:
I'd support this as an engine feature, it's certainly generic enough (what games don't use spring's los?) to warrant engine rather than luarule support.

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Dont you fucking agree? It will be awesome new feature!

Even OTA had this awesome feature!

[Hoi]

Making you see everything should be easy in lua (modoption if wanted), I don't know how to disable unit los though.

[Pxtl]

Implement in lua, make modoption.

We need mutator support though. Some way to have multiple packages loaded in a single game. That way you could make a single "Permanent LOS" gadget and let the user run it with any game.

[Peet]

I'd support this as an engine feature, it's certainly generic enough (what games don't use spring's los?) to warrant engine rather than luarule support.

[TradeMark]

Implement in lua, make modoption.

We need mutator support though. Some way to have multiple packages loaded in a single game. That way you could make a single "Permanent LOS" gadget and let the user run it with any game.

as i said, no need to make it complicated when it can be made simple with more pros than the complicated version has, didnt you read my post >_>

+ how you make bullets visible with lua... etc other stuff, like shields, ground decals, features etc-etc-etc... its just too complicated. Easiest and best way is to just disable the LOS test and tell the engine directly that the thing it is testing is ALWAYS under LOS, that way every problem will be solved. No need to write complex patches to LUA system etc or make mutators to every possible mod versions (which nobody will download for just permanent LOS feature) or new content handlers... >_>

I'd support this as an engine feature, it's certainly generic enough (what games don't use spring's los?) to warrant engine rather than luarule support.

Yay someone agrees!

[AF]

Nah its all possible in lua, this should be written as a mod option and bundled with the engine. It would then automatically show up in the lobby as requested!

[lurker]

Nah its all possible in lua

How so?

You can't do it well in lua, and it's already there in the engine but out of reach. Though I think the current version in the engine still does most of the los calcs.

[Pxtl]

I'd think the best way to put global LOS into the engine would be to include it not as another "engine option", but as a flag in one of the core mod-wide TDF/Lua files. Then if a modder wishes to expose it as a mod-option, that's their prerogative, they can trigger it in their mod in a _post.lua file.

Or is that what you meant by mod-option?

Either way, you could probably do it now with a lot of Lua hacks in _post files. Dunno if you could do all the projectiles and CEGs though, or if you could save the processing time from calculating LOS - you could probably correspondingly nerf the sight range of all units down to a negligible amount, but I don't know if that would have side-effects.

[Regret]

Nah its all possible in lua, this should be written as a mod option and bundled with the engine. It would then automatically show up in the lobby as requested!

Permanent LOS is one of those things that should be done engine side.

[TradeMark]

I'd think the best way to put global LOS into the engine would be to include it not as another "engine option", but as a flag in one of the core mod-wide TDF/Lua files. Then if a modder wishes to expose it as a mod-option, that's their prerogative, they can trigger it in their mod in a _post.lua file.

Or is that what you meant by mod-option?

lol no no no non on ono no ono noono onono no onono nono nono ono nono

the point is that i can when ever i want in what ever mod i play, put it on/off any time i want

[Pxtl]

That's silly. We don't need any more engine-wide options that are either inapplicable or outright destructive to the gameplay of mods that aren't designed for it. We already have D-gun limits for mods that don't have D-guns, diminishing metal-maker returns for mods that don't have metal makers, etc. We _just_ got the stuff to move away from this kind of crap with the new EngineOptions feature and you want to add _more_ of them?

Notice that your option would be completely inapplicable to a mod like Fibre, and would be destructive to a visibility-oriented mod like 1944.

It's currently possible (but difficult) to make a mutator for any given mod that would do what you want - and it would be listed in the lobby as such, so players would actually see "Balanced Annihilation Permanent LOS mode". If it's added as a switch in a core TDF/lua file like I suggested, it would be trivial to do so.

Plus, you SHOULD implement this as a mutator, since you should also be gutting out all the visibility-related units that are cluttering up the menu.

[KingRaptor]

Just make it a /cheat command...

[Hoi]

the idea is that you can play with it.

[TradeMark]

That's silly. We don't need any more engine-wide options that are either inapplicable or outright destructive to the gameplay of mods that aren't designed for it.

shuuuuuuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
it will be option which you dont need to use if you dont want to.
if you dont like it, DONT JOIN GAMES WHICH USES THIS FEATURE!

We already have D-gun limits for mods that don't have D-guns, diminishing metal-maker returns for mods that don't have metal makers, etc. We _just_ got the stuff to move away from this kind of crap with the new EngineOptions feature and you want to add _more_ of them?

What mod doesnt have line of sight? And why does it matter? Because it doesnt look good? You want to ruin the Spring Engine efficiency (in two meanings, dl and cpu) because you dont want to see one "useless" (in your opinion) option in the list? Then just make your own lobby client which doesnt have that option visible lol. Or make someone make it for you, so you could customize your lobby client, and remove those "useless" options from it. Perfect.

Notice that your option would be completely inapplicable to a mod like Fibre, and would be destructive to a visibility-oriented mod like 1944.

Sure you can play them with permanent LOS, thats just a (fun) way to create new gameplay for those mods.

It's currently possible (but difficult) to make a mutator for any given mod that would do what you want - and it would be listed in the lobby as such, so players would actually see "Balanced Annihilation Permanent LOS mode". If it's added as a switch in a core TDF/lua file like I suggested, it would be trivial to do so.

That is just so unacceptable. Nobody would download a mutator just because permanent LOS.

Imagine you would download new mutator for d-gun limit and metal maker efficiency, just because you want to make spring modding cooler.

And nobody wants to create new mutator every time the main mod was updated, or want to clone every fucking mod he plays just becaues of permanent LOS which was made with shitty LUA hacks and need to be updated every time something is added in Spring engine.

Listen me. It is way more easier to remove the LOS testing and set it always true. THAN make a complex LUA implementation which needs to be updated every time Spring engine gets some new LOS related stuff added in it.

Plus, you SHOULD implement this as a mutator, since you should also be gutting out all the visibility-related units that are cluttering up the menu.

Thats just such a bullshit, OTA had this permanent LOS feature, and they didnt remove radar units when you used permanent LOS. If those extra units really confuse you that much, you can always make LUA script in the mod which will disable all radar & LOS related units with no other usage than that

[Peet]

We already have D-gun limits for mods that don't have D-guns, diminishing metal-maker returns for mods that don't have metal makers, etc.

How many games on the spring engine do not make use of its LoS?

[Auswaschbar]

Just make it a /cheat command...

Code: Select all

/cheat 1
/globallos
/cheat 0

Or make it with lua, its so fast nobody will be able to abuse it.

Code: Select all

Spring.SendCommands{"cheat 1"}
Spring.SendCommands{"globallos"}
Spring.SendCommands{"cheat 0"}

And, of course,

We don't need any more engine-wide options that are either inapplicable or outright destructive to the gameplay of mods that aren't designed for it.

[aegis]

didn't trepan or someone make some minigames?

[TradeMark]

Or make it with lua, its so fast nobody will be able to abuse it.

Code: Select all

Spring.SendCommands{"cheat 1"}
Spring.SendCommands{"globallos"}
Spring.SendCommands{"cheat 0"}

Is that made in that way i suggested, so it would just disable LOS test, and same time make engine faster? Or is that /globallos command using some LUA based code?

Edit:
Nice i tested that, it works, but when i use L (to see my line of sight etc) it doesnt show the whole map in same color o_O are you sure it is working? Should show whole map in same color when pressing L...

It is still updating the LOS map, which is time consuming too, and theres no need to update it in this case.

[Auswaschbar]

IIRC it still does update the LOS map (which is the thing which causes lag when lots of fighters are ingame), but always return true on LOS checks.

Why is it this way? No clue, I did not make it.

[TradeMark]

Oh, damn, it should be made so it wont even care about the LOS map or test it etc, so it would make spring much faster then.